Contractor Accreditation

[Midland Retty]

Cheers for that Buzz

Right come on the silence is deafening folks, need some answers please.

If some of you are uncomfortable in replying publically please PM me. I never asked barbed questions and Ive no hidden agendas, and this is not an attack fire alarm engineers. I'm just asking a genuine question.

So I will ask again - if I were an RP and I needed to install a fire alarm to BS 5839 what should I do to ensure I employ a competent engineer? Do I only go for engineers that have their sp203 ticket? Should I disregard anyone who has no formal qualifications? What do I do?

What I'm gleening from the replies so far is that there is nothing stopping me having a quick glance at the relevant guides and then setting myself up as a fire alarm engineer. Now, I know other roles within the industry such as assessors can set themselves up with no previous experience, so what should I advise RPs on how avoid the cowboys and employ the good engineers?

Lets list some of the accredited or formal schemes which are out there. If formal qualifications are not necessary where an engineer has experience then lets specify what experience means - does 2 years fitting alarms making you competent? Does 10? what? what is it we are talking here.

If Im asking a daft question, please do tell me, but if Im advising an RP I would much prefer to steer them in the direction of the good guys, not the cowboys. Surely that benefits everyone concerned.

[Wiz]

M.F. The simple answer is surely that there is no simple answer!

However, I would say that choosing a member of a third-party assessment scheme is a virtual guarantee of getting a competent, if not necessarily the cheapest, job. It is probably the only 'guarantee' currently available.

However, there are certainly many others who can provide an equal, and possibly cheaper, job, but a customer would need to then check the following criteria (at the least)
a) Obtain personal recommendations or references from similar jobs for at least three years.
b) Obtain a guarantee that the design/installation/commission/servicing would be to BS5839 Part 1 2002 + A2 2008.
c) Insurance cover is in place suitable for the work in question

The simple answer would be for a non-profit making organisation (but excluding all those 'non-profit making organisations' that are really just 'jobs for the boys' from the insurance industry) to provide a simple but cost-effective nationally accepted accreditation scheme. Currently having so many schemes run for profit, is confusing and expensive for everyone.

[Allen Higginson]

M.F. The simple answer is surely that there is no simple answer!

However, I would say that choosing a member of a third-party assessment scheme is a virtual guarantee of getting a competent, if not necessarily the cheapest, job. It is probably the only 'guarantee' currently available.

However, there are certainly many others who can provide an equal, and possibly cheaper, job, but a customer would need to then check the following criteria (at the least)
a) Obtain personal recommendations or references from similar jobs for at least three years.
b) Obtain a guarantee that the design/installation/commission/servicing would be to BS5839 Part 1 2002 + A2 2008.
c) Insurance cover is in place suitable for the work in question

The simple answer would be for a non-profit making organisation (but excluding all those 'non-profit making organisations' that are really just 'jobs for the boys' from the insurance industry) to provide a simple but cost-effective nationally accepted accreditation scheme. Currently having so many schemes run for profit, is confusing and expensive for everyone.

Ahhh,the voice of common sense and  good practice speaks again!!!

[Bobbins]

M.F. The simple answer is surely that there is no simple answer!

However, I would say that choosing a member of a third-party assessment scheme is a virtual guarantee of getting a competent, if not necessarily the cheapest, job. It is probably the only 'guarantee' currently available.

The simple answer would be for a non-profit making organisation (but excluding all those 'non-profit making organisations' that are really just 'jobs for the boys' from the insurance industry) to provide a simple but cost-effective nationally accepted accreditation scheme. Currently having so many schemes run for profit, is confusing and expensive for everyone.

Two things WIZ

Firstly you are right with accredited schemes, it is a measure of quality which should guarantee a specified level of service, but more importantly it provides a level playing field.

Secondly I think you are wrong; with the non-profit making organisation angle. Why? Professionals versus amateurs. The so called profit making organisations do the job for a living they are not peer assessors they don’t do it as a favour. They will work to a standard model and also be checked by UKAS to ensure what they are doing is independent and accountable. They will have to be efficient and offer a professional service. Yes these schemes cost more but I don’t believe its all down to profit. If you take cars as an example you can get from A to B in a Fiat Panda or you can go in a BMW, quality costs!  If you want simple and cost effective you can buy a Panda and if you want rock solid reassurance you buy BMW I agree there has to be a balance but in my opinion cheap is cheap for a reason.

Wiz don’t be fooled by what you think is a non profit organisations, they are still in the business of making money the only difference is where it goes. They will have targets and margins and % to aim for just the same as a profit making company. Yet they won’t have the accountability a professional company has or be subject to the same controls and inspections.

[Midland Retty]

Thanks for your replies so far folks.

The reason I ask questions like this stems from the fact that most RPs want to comply with legislation but need to be steered and directed to resources which will help them to do so.

Im concerned an RP could end up in the dock because the s/he has employed a dodgy contractor or assessor whose actions have caused a serious case offence. Perhaps Im being unrealistic, and looking too deeply at it.

But lets be honest from the RP's viewpioint appointing competent persons is a minefield, infact we have proven it on this very thread the the issue of competency is a minefield to people who actually work within the industry!

To what extent do we say the RP has done everything reasonably practicable to appoint competent persons. How does the RP stay out of the dock?

I notice alot of assessors / consultants have said little on this, so my question is this , how competent are we if we cant direct or guide RPs to appoint competent persons. What are we doing to check we are guiding our clients in the right way?

[Wiz]

M.F. The simple answer is surely that there is no simple answer!

However, I would say that choosing a member of a third-party assessment scheme is a virtual guarantee of getting a competent, if not necessarily the cheapest, job. It is probably the only 'guarantee' currently available.

The simple answer would be for a non-profit making organisation (but excluding all those 'non-profit making organisations' that are really just 'jobs for the boys' from the insurance industry) to provide a simple but cost-effective nationally accepted accreditation scheme. Currently having so many schemes run for profit, is confusing and expensive for everyone.

Two things WIZ

Firstly you are right with accredited schemes, it is a measure of quality which should guarantee a specified level of service, but more importantly it provides a level playing field.

Secondly I think you are wrong; with the non-profit making organisation angle. Why? Professionals versus amateurs. The so called profit making organisations do the job for a living they are not peer assessors they don’t do it as a favour. They will work to a standard model and also be checked by UKAS to ensure what they are doing is independent and accountable. They will have to be efficient and offer a professional service. Yes these schemes cost more but I don’t believe its all down to profit. If you take cars as an example you can get from A to B in a Fiat Panda or you can go in a BMW, quality costs!  If you want simple and cost effective you can buy a Panda and if you want rock solid reassurance you buy BMW I agree there has to be a balance but in my opinion cheap is cheap for a reason.

Wiz don’t be fooled by what you think is a non profit organisations, they are still in the business of making money the only difference is where it goes. They will have targets and margins and % to aim for just the same as a profit making company. Yet they won’t have the accountability a professional company has or be subject to the same controls and inspections.

Bobbins, I accept that you are entitled to your opinion and that it is a valid opinion, but I disagree with you.

I have actually found that most people are not looking for 'cheap'. They are looking for 'value for money'. They are looking for 'not paying for fancy offices and corporate images'. They are looking for 'not paying through the nose because I don't know anything about this subject'. They are just looking for a job well done at a reasonable price.

I personally don't like paying for someone else to confirm that what I have done complies with BS. Generally, I know more than the person who is 'checking' me, so it is a waste of money. And the 'checking' costs are not cheap, particularly when these also include an element of charge for the 'checker' to also be 'checked' by another person to ensure he is 'checking' correctly! And Ad Infinitum, I would imagine!

I also don't like paying for expensive training I don't need to get a certificate issued on the results of a simple test when I'm not given the opportunity to take the test without the expensive training!

In saying all of the above, I don't see how the 'cowboys' can ever be 'weeded out' without some sort of assessment/certification scheme.

[Clevelandfire 3]

Well said Wiz you hit the nail on the head. Midland I tell my clients to look for an installer with some form of accreditation, the client will then come back to me so that i can check the persons credentials if its a scheme im unaware of.

[kurnal]

Ah Cleveland. How about you and I developing a funny handshake  so that when your client comes to you for you to "Check"  you recommend me in return for a nice bung. 

Simples.

[Midland Retty]

Ah good, there you are Kurnal - come on dont be shy while you are here tel us what you advise your clients if they ask how to find a decent and competent fire alarm engineer ...

 

[kurnal]

Simples. There are four firms that i know and trust having worked along side them on other jobs and I always recommend one of them on a horses for courses basis and others I have met through the forum and learned to respect from the quality of their postings.

The fire field is no worse than any other industry though and personal recommendation is always the best and most reliable indicator.
Can you recommend a good builder, plumber, garage, masseur, solicitor? (particularly the masseur) 

Most customers want a good job at a fair price. And most of the industry endeavours to deliver that but with varying degrees of success.
But there are a substantial number of customers (and I find some groups in society to be more prone to this than others ) who just want the cheapest and nastiest job doing that looks right and fools the authorities cos you chaps all too rarely actually look at the commissioning certificate and measure the system against it.  These customers are the fair prey of the rogues in the industry. Bit like a certain factory I came across in the West Mids that churns out "Fire Doors"  that have never been near a candle let alone a test lab. No amount of certification schemes will clean any industry of these rogues- and if busted they will move to another industry and prey on people there. Oh dear I guess I have gone and upset the moderators again

[Midland Retty]

Thanks for that Prof.

So from the replies thus far the answer appears to be that there is no simple answer.

Does that suprise me? No. But does it need addressing? That depends: Am I being perhaps a bit over the top to suggest one day we will see an RP hammered in court simply for choosing the wrong contractor? A contractor who on the face of it ticked all the boxes?

The tips you have all given should atleast help an RP make an informed choice when selecting a competent contractor, which is better than nothing, and that was the point of my asking the question.

Prof  its not like you to tar everyone with the same brush, least of all Fire safety Inspectors, some of them do look at certification you know.Stop baiting! Will get you back at playtime - (oh and I've PM'd you about the masseur!!)

[Clevelandfire 3]

No you arent being over the top. It will happen and unfortunately the responsible person will cop for it because as with everything the government does there is sketchy information available to the minions it deems should cmply with its laws.

Kurnal your comment about fire safety inspectors is wholly inaccurate. If people started having a rant about us assessors you'd soon be up in arms talking about sweeping statements and all the rest of it. So lets not be silly as some assessors are just as bad.

[Galeon]

A client I have has a very large portfolio , having worked for them for many years , they asked me to recommend a good fire consultancy practice . Which I did and my client who is now their client is extremely happy.

The twist in the tale , when my clients , tenants ask for risk assessments etc , I advise them to use >>>> , as they also work for their Landlord , the tenant then searches the tinternet decide they can get it cheaper , then moan to me about what a crap job they got.

I told you so , gets boring after a time , ultimately you pays your money .....................
What I have done for many years is build up a good working relationship with like minded people , and insist upon common sense , but when it comes to the punters it aint so common.

I am lucky not to have any issues with the boys who do the RP work as we go back some 20 years now , if you are 'recommending ' firms put a few on a list , and bear in mind it doesn't have to alphabetical .

Old story not what you know ...........

[Midland Retty]

Hi Galeon

Cheers for that, so the fire consultancy you recommended, how did you know they were competent? Im not asking because im having a pop at consultants, or anyone else, Im just interested in general opinion - what made you think "This company is good and knows it stuff?"

[jimbosdad]

MR/MF/TMU

Does that suprise me? No. But does it need addressing? That depends: Am I being perhaps a bit over the top to suggest one day we will see an RP hammered in court simply for choosing the wrong contractor? A contractor who on the face of it ticked all the boxes?

If as you suggest the RP has chosen a certified and accredited contractor would he not have a defence of 'due diligence' and could not the contractor be regarded as a responsible person under 5.4a

Please be gentle I'm new in these here parts!