Contractor Accreditation

[Midland Retty]

Hi Folks

Your comments please.

What accreditation do you look for when appointing or recommending a fire alarm contractor? - in other words if a punter were to ask "How do I check my fire alarm installer / servicing engineer is competent" what do you tell them?

There are the usual accreditation schemes out there such as LPC and FIA but what do you recommend?

Would it be helpful to list accrediated schemes on the forum so that RPs when visiting the site can see the recognised schemes that are available and select a contractor and or check the competency of their contractor ?

[Wiz]

My experience is that choosing a service provider who is accredited by a third-party organisation is no guarantee of receiving a cost-effective or competent service. Some of the stupidiest and laziest fire alarm engineers I've ever met have been employed by 'third-party accredited' companies!

However, I would accept that choosing an accredited company is far better than sticking a pin into a list from the Yellow Pages!

I maintain that the most important 'selection' criteria (in order of importance) are:

1) Recommendation from someone you know and trust.
2) Properly and fully insured
3) Length of time established
4) Written contract of service to be provided and with guarantees
5) Membership of recognised trade body
6) Smart corporate image

[Chris Houston]

Working for someone who gives advice as part of our business, we need to be careful how we specify.

I'd be asking for someone who is 3rd party accredited for fire alarm design/installation/commissioning/maintenance (delete what ever isn't necessary) by a UKAS accredited body.

[Midland Retty]

Thanks for your replies so far

Anymore thoughts on this folks?

[AnthonyB]

Don't rely on general Contractor Approval schemes that vet all trades for potential scheme customers - they check the person is insured and has all the H&S paperwork mountain but in no way means they won't over charge/over specify/cut corners/be incompetent as they do not look at this aspect in any useful way shape or form. They are intended purely to ensure that any contractor a customer uses is going to work on your site in a safe appropriate manner and that if something still goes wrong they are insured.

[Bobbins]

Three things to insist on when looking for competent individuals;


1   An individual certification of competence (company schemes can be very weak unless the certification body are on the ball)
2   Membership of a trade/professional body with a published code of conduct
3   Insurance cover  

If you have the three above; then if anything goes wrong you have three bodies to complain to, and hopefully do something about the complaint. Removal from the certification scheme listing, removal from the trade association and an increase in insurance premiums are all motivators for the company to get it right in the first place.

There are no sure fire ways of guaranteeing quality, even big companies can get it wrong. Anyone drive a Toyota?  

[Midland Retty]

Thanks Anthony and Bobbins

Bobbins you mention an individual certificate of competence - what would that be specifically,? what should it say on that certificate, and who should it be issued by?

cheers

mf

[hammer1]

I have a office company located in the Bromley, Kent area, that will be looking for a competent fire alarm company and also a extinguisher/E/L company.

Anyone know any cowboys..........I mean competent contractors please PM me (they will have to go through a vetting process, but not the CDM standards).


Cheers

[Clevelandfire 3]

I doubt anyone can answer you Retty in the way you are expecting and that is because no one really knows. I've seen a bewildering number of so called qualifications from bodies ive never heard of. And the daft thing is they may be ok and up to the job. But its difficult to check their credibility. Id say if someone hands you a piece of paper which says " joe bloggs" has attended a course to design install and maintain fire alarms to BS 5839 then its a start. Then follow Wiz's bullet points to check you will get good service. The problem is the RP could be duped into employing someone they think is ok only to find theyre not who they say they are. I would suggest so long as the RP has made "reasonable" enquires as to the person's competence then they should never find themselves in court which is why I suspect you are asking about this. Given Gordon Browns mob has done little to help RPs in this particular area and to be honest neither has the fire industry the RP is left as always a bit high and dry wondering where to go. The sad thing is we fire consultants, and enforcing officer dont know either, unless someone wants to bite the bullet and correct me on that of course.

[kurnal]

Hammer 1
I know many on this forum are absolutely competent and well worthy of a recommendation.

For starters on the alarms side why not give Galeon, Dave Rooney, Buzzard905, Dr Wiz, Bearded Yorkshireman, Graeme, a call? And those others I have not mentioned  but who prove their competence day in day out on the technical  forum helping  folks resolve their sticky problems.

I know Dave Rooney and Galeon are on your patch.

[AnthonyB]

I'll admit my list of decent contractors is also from experience & recommendation rather than them being in a scheme - in the very unlikely event those above can't help I might be able to also.

[Midland Retty]

The purpose of this thead was to highlight the difficulty an RP has in choosing a competent contractor and it is interesting to note no-one has suggested any specific schemes or qualifications in their responses.

Im not saying any of the replies are incorrect but I am mindful that when we specify or recommend an RP installs an alarm system to BS 5839 for example, they dont get into the situation of employing someone in good faith only to find out down the line, perhaps in court, that the contractor wasn't competent.

How do I reasonably check the competence of an engineer? I may have been recommended an engineer, the engineer may be punctual, reliable, and fully insured, but that doesnt tell me he or she is competent to install a fire alarm necessarily.

What is it that tells me specifically that an engineer is competent? How would I stand up in court and safely say " yep i did everything i could possibly do to ensure this fellow was competent"

Some people say experience is a pointer toward competency - well where has that experience come from, did they learn from another engineer years back? For years Ive generally done repairs on my own car - does that make me mechanic?

[Allen Higginson]

The purpose of this thead was to highlight the difficulty an RP has in choosing a competent contractor and it is interesting to note no-one has suggested any specific schemes or qualifications in their responses.

Im not saying any of the replies are incorrect but I am mindful that when we specify or recommend an RP installs an alarm system to BS 5839 for example, they dont get into the situation of employing someone in good faith only to find out down the line, perhaps in court, that the contractor wasn't competent.

How do I reasonably check the competence of an engineer? I may have been recommended an engineer, the engineer may be punctual, reliable, and fully insured, but that doesnt tell me he or she is competent to install a fire alarm necessarily.

What is it that tells me specifically that an engineer is competent? How would I stand up in court and safely say " yep i did everything i could possibly do to ensure this fellow was competent"

Some people say experience is a pointer toward competency - well where has that experience come from, did they learn from another engineer years back? For years Ive generally done repairs on my own car - does that make me mechanic?

Depends on who carried out the in-house training in relation to making an engineer competent.My personal experience is that it counts for more than some of the accredited companies who have joined the SP203 scheme for example,some of who I wouldn't trust to change a 13A plug.Yet,certain sections of the industry are insisting on membership of this scheme and the BS does point towards it as proof of competency also.
We don't have it and where I am based it is causing difficulties - I have a small site that I have maintained for over 15 years but now the council is insisting that the maintenance company be accredited by a UKAS accredited company and that the maintenence must be done to BS5839:1988.
Anyone want to spot the problem with this requirement??

[Wiz]

I can get someone to quote you on 1988 standards Buzz, but it will still be at 2010 prices!

[Allen Higginson]

I can get someone to quote you on 1988 standards Buzz, but it will still be at 2010 prices!

I'll bear that in mind Wiz!!