Mineshaft Rescue Fatal Accident Inquiry

[Meerkat]

Some depressing stuff here http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/news/Alison-Hume-Mineshaft-rescue-death.6189338.jp

The Sheriff will deliver his findings "later"

[FSO]

Dont Scotland have USAR teams then??

[Midland Retty]

Very sad affair indeed.

This highlights several concerns I have with the state of the fire service, and Im finding it very difficult not to get emotive about it.
On one hand this is just one very sad instance, and it would be alarmist to suggest that this is a common problem in all brigades

On the other it does beg the question if similar problems have occurred but have not been reported. This is  also the first time I’ve heard of a senior officer state publically their reluctance to commit crews due to fears of reprisal.

I am of the opinion that this represents a larger problem within the UK fire service. I am of the opinion that over the top health and safety restraints mean that UK Brigades simply aren't equipped with the appropriate equipment or training to provide the kind of service that members of the public reasonably expect.  

I hark back to the discussion we had about someone drowning in a lake. Why cant firefighters enter the water in attempt to save that life SO LONG AS they have the appropriate training and equipment available to do it, rather than wait 30 minutes for a dedicated water rescue team to arrive which may be far too late!!!

Policies procedures and health and safety legislation needs to be reviewed to ensure they do not doesn’t hamper emergency service personnel from doing their jobs and to remove any perception of disproportionate reprisals when things go wrong.

If we can’t povide an effective service then what is the point of us being here?

Another concern I have is that over time if this trend continues the public will lose faith in the fire service and could take matters into there own hands and try to deal with emergencies on their own without calling out the emergency services.

It is a very sad day when t fears over litigation overshadows someone’s life. This needs to be addressed now!

[afterburner]

Yes Scotland has USAR teams and in fact the F&RS concerned are a 'leading light' in the training and provision of such teams.

an intersting topic was the Incident Manager decided to send for a Mountain Rescue team to carry out the rescue which begs a couple of questions: -
(a) who decided Mountain Rescue was a competent outfit to go down holes in the ground?
(b) why do Mountain Rescue Teams come under police control and deployment and not under the Fire & Rescue Authorities?

MR seems to have it right, the fear of legislative enforcement, the fear of being sued is greater than the delivering the service.

[kurnal]

For 8 years I was OIC of a fire station that had an estimated 80,000 disused lead mine shafts within 5 miles of the station so this type of incident was commonplace. We set up a specialist Rope Rescue unit (after many years of improvisation) and had unimog, sheerlegs and all the kit necessary to carry out this work safely. To be fair it was mainly animal rescues on which we honed our skills.

One of the biggest hazards is an irrespirable atmosphere in the base of the shaft, through a build up of CO2, CO, methane etc. Not many brigades carry monitoring equipment as a matter of course. We didn't for many years. If the casualty is alive and conscious then its a fair bet that the atmosphere will support life and a successful rescue is likely. The difficult one is where the casualty is out of sight and or unconscious.

I remember a very tragic incident on the station patch during the construction of a large reservoir, where one morning  a construction team arrived to continue work in a shallow service shaft about 16 ft deep. Unbeknown to them a build up of CO2 had occurred in the base of the shaft over the weekend and the air was irrespirable. The first man on reaching the bottom of the ladder was overcome and collapsed. One by one three of his mates each descended the ladder, each with the intention of trying to effect  a rescue and one by one each was overcome at the base. Heroes all but what a tragic and unnecessary loss of life. The youngest member of the team was the wisest and rather than descending to his death ran to the site office to raise the alarm. Sadly it was too late to save those brave men.

I do not know the details of the tragic event in Scotland but let us not overlook the the difficulty and hazards of descending into a confined space hanging on a rope especially if you have no evidence ofthe condition of the air.

[jokar]

On top of that, the HSE have just issued a document on cooperation with the FRS called striking the balance between operational duties and health and safety duties.  Its needs to be read by all.

[Clevelandfire 3]

I do not know the details of the tragic event in Scotland but let us not overlook the the difficulty and hazards of descending into a confined space hanging on a rope especially if you have no evidence ofthe condition of the air.

But risks like this are not insurmountable in the 21st century Kurnal and rescues such as this can be undertaken fairly safely so long as you have the right tools for the job. You and your crew attended several similar incidents by the sounds of it and I guarantee you always did the best you could as safely as you could with the resources available. I bet my pension on the fact that at the foremost in your mind was the job in hand, not the fear of reprimand if it all went pair shaped.

I had the pleasure of visiting the Mines Rescue Service to do some training years back. They are an excellent group of people and a lot can be learnt from them. A few fire services have been sending firefighters to their training centre recently to undertake confined space rescue training. Brigades are realising they dont know it all and sometimes need the expertise of others to enrich the training of their crews.

Jokar Ive read the joint statement from the HSE and CFOA. Its just words as far as Im concerned. Lets see if the HSE, the fire service and the unions will stick to it. Im always happy to be proven wrong.

To add to Rettys ramblings another culprit in the demise of the fire brigade was the union. They got silly and were a key component of preventing firefighters doing their jobs in my honest opinion. Im just glad im out of the nonsense.

[afterburner]

Cleveland, I hear your closing comment from the majority of recent retirees from the Service.

But I'm sure the young firefighters who have no memory of what went before still regard it as the best job going!

[Meerkat]

It appears they did actaully send a FF down the hole but were not then allowed to pull the woman out due to a local rule about the FRS not attempting rope rescue. 

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/theemergencyservices/Firemen-stand-by-as-rules.6117739.jp

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/theemergencyservices/Fire-chief-ruled--out.6121938.jp

What a tragic story for all concerned...

[Steven N]

To add to Rettys ramblings another culprit in the demise of the fire brigade was the union. They got silly and were a key component of preventing firefighters doing their jobs in my honest opinion. Im just glad im out of the nonsense.

There is a lot of sense normally spoken on this forum, then every now & again.....shall we perhaps go back to hook ladder drills? live carry downs? lowered from 4th floor of the tower with a lowering line?
The FBU are the sum of their members, they are not always right and i have said that often enough but they campaign to make the job safer for the people doing it, the fact is H&S regs dominate the country today if you want to blame people blame the govt & the EC perhaps for bringing them in or the litagous risk averse society we live in-ah yes comes back to the lawyers 

[wyngwili]

Sounds to me that serious reform is needed within the Fire and Rescue service regarding Health and Safety.  The principle reason for the existence of such a service is to save life.

[Clevelandfire 3]

Cleveland, I hear your closing comment from the majority of recetn retirees from the Service.

But I'm sure the young firefighters who have no memory of what went before still regard it as the best job going!

Yes I realise that Afterburner. And I know I sound like a bitter dinosaur. Just give the youngsters a bit more credit because I know of a lot of firefighters both of the modern school of thought and the old school who are gravely disatisfied with the state of the fire service and the way things are going. We are losing it and pretty soon we wont be able to bring it back. This isnt sentimentality on my part or the distant romantic thought of how things used to be.

Stevo I support without compromise the idea of doing something as safely as possible, but not at the expense of being able to do the job. THE UNION to which you will know the one I refer as any firefighter will tell you deep down have a big part to play in this debarcle.You are grossly misinformed to think members at large have a say about how the union plays its political games at a national level. Grossly misinformed. Go talk to some of your colleagues.

[afterburner]

Cleveland, you are no more of a dinosaur then the rest of us. The real tragedy seems to be that the firefighters of today are better equipped (in every understanding of this expression), and trained to use very advanced equipment,& better informed than we ever were.

However, despite this, there seems to be a perceived drop in what the F&RS actually achieves operationally. We need to ask where our collective perception comes from and who has created this situation if we continue to believe our perceptions are valid? Is the Union to blame? Perhaps as a fellow traveller but the politicians who set the agenda for the F&RS, and the most senior officers who put this agenda into effect appear to be the prime drivers. There seemed to be an inordinate rush to 'modernise' the F&RS with Executive Officers driving through reforms. Surely some of these reforms are reflected in operational responses and tactics.

But re-inventing the 'old ways' may not be easily achievable. Who will teach the 'old skills'? And the fear of litigation and prosecution remains. The recent 'arrests' must send a shiver through all incident command officers.  

[Clevelandfire 3]

Spot on Afterburner couldnt have put it better myself. Your response mirrors my feelings and opinions.

[Chris Houston]

I think it's a bit unfair to blame the EU.  Firstly we are part of it, but actually it is the UK who is leads the way as being one of the most litigous cultures in the EU, so if anything the rest of the EU should be blaming us.

I also wonder if the feat of litigation is founded?  Are there many examples of litigation associated with fire fighters putting themselves in harms way?