fire extinguishers and hose reels

[Brian McGinty]

I registered just to ask you fine people 2 questions. If you run a day centre for the elderly, do you have to have extinguishers in every area that the clients and staff would be using?

I have been told that you do not have to have extinguishers in an area that can be reached by a hose reel, is this true?

[fireftrm]

There is no requirement to provide extinguishers, other than for special risks - such as electrical installations or kitchens - where a hosereel reaches.

Also you do not have to have an extinguisher on every area. The BS states that extinguishers be provided at a level worked out by their fire extingusihing rating for a Class A fire:

The basic provision of extinguishers within a building should be one extinguisher, of at least 13A rating, for every 200m2 of floor area, or part therof, with at least two per floor.

However, for those buildings where an upper floor area is less than 100m2 , one single 13A rated extinguisher may be acceptable on each floor.

In addition no person should have to travel more than 30 metres from the site of a fire to reach an extinguisher, this may increase the number required in complex buildings.

I cannot remember the coverage of an hosereel, but it will depend on its length anyway. I am sure someone will fill in those details for us!

[Gary Howe]

The requirement for firefighting equipment is detailed within the WorkPlace Regs (see text below), your statement:-


""I have been told that you do not have to have extinguishers in an area that can be reached by a hose reel, is this true?""


This is totally untrue, the basis for your firefighting provison should be based upon the guidance contained with the BS and the fire risk assessment which should have been carried out for the property.

These two documents used together will decide whether or not your ff measures are suitable and sufficent.


Fire-fighting and fire detection
     4.  - (1) Where necessary (whether due to the features of a workplace, the activity carried on there, any hazard present there or any other relevant circumstances) in order to safeguard the safety of employees in case of fire -



(a) a workplace shall, to the extent that is appropriate, be equipped with appropriate fire-fighting equipment and with fire detectors and alarms; and

(b) any non-automatic fire-fighting equipment so provided shall be easily accessible, simple to use and indicated by signs[19],


and for the purposes of sub-paragraph (a) what is appropriate is to be determined by the dimensions and use of the building housing the workplace, the equipment it contains, the physical and chemical properties of the substances likely to be present and the maximum number of people that may be present at any one time.

    (2) An employer shall, where necessary in order to safeguard the safety of his employees in case of fire -



(a) take measures for fire-fighting in the workplace, adapted to the nature of the activities carried on there and the size of his undertaking and of the workplace concerned and taking into account persons other than his employees who may be present;

(b) nominate employees to implement those measures and ensure that the number of such employees, their training and the equipment available to them are adequate, taking into account the size of, and the specific hazards involved in, the workplace concerned; and

(c) arrange any necessary contacts with external emergency services, particularly as regards rescue work and fire-fighting.

Regards


Gary.

[stevew]

In the type of premises described I would strongly recommend that you 'lose' the hose reels and look for portable extinguisher coverage only.

In my opinion hose reels the provision of hose reels should be risk based in premises where trained fire wardens/marshals and/or fire teams operate.  In all other situations portable equipment would be more appropriate.

I have recommended this approach to clients in care premises, offices and shops.

Steve

[fireftrm]

Hosereels are entirely suitable to replace extinguishers and the BS says so. They are no more difficult to operate, indeed generally less so. The idea that they should eb 'lost' and replaced with extinguishers is laughable. Recommending that premises provide extinguishers as well because of the training implications is disingenuous. I know of few people who have never operated a hosereel, albeit small 13mm ones attached to taps at home; I know of no-one in any premises I have come across who has operated an extinguisher.

The fire service would never recommend you 'lost' the rells and bought extinguishers, what a total waste of money. We state clearly that extinguishers/reels be used only when you are trained and feel safe to do so. Extinguishers in my opinion, and that of my colleagues here today, are far more difficult to operate than a hosereel. Hosereels are safer for the user as they have an endless supply, they are more useful for the fire service andrequire less maintenance - they should be tested by running out and operating annually, extinguishers require annual service plus refilling every 5 years. Extinguisher salesmen will disagree, beware!

As to  Gary's comment that extinguishers are not required where hosereels reach being 'totally untrue' he is wrong. He even goes on to say that the BS and the RA will determine the fire fighting equipment coverage. Well yes they will, and they will both end up with:

If the area can be reached with a hosereel and there are no special risks (i.e not Class A risks) then there is no requirement for any other firefighting equipment. Also the points 4.1a), b) and 4.2a) will also state the case. Training - yep but then which is harder to use and train for..............

[messy]

 Hosereels are safer for the user as they have an endless supply, .....

Does that make them safer? You could argue the opposite.

Forget the BS EN FRA  and all that stuff - In the real world, if an undertrained person uses an extinguisher during a fire, there is a built-in invisible safety mechanism - i.e. it runs out. The operator will have to make a decision whether to carry on (ie get another extinguisher) or abandon their attempts.

If they decide to carry on, usually they must walk away from the fire, perhaps out of the room. Upon returning with the new extinguisher, they have the opportunity to reassess the situation and they get another chance to abandon.

With a hosereel, there is no opportunity to re- assess the situation. Tunnel vision fuelled by adreneline/panic may set in, causing heavier breathing and a worsened degree of smoke inhalation. The result - one poorly would-be-firefighter.

Yes I know this is all down to training, but I have seen apparently highly trained NHS staff (who receive regular training sessions) hospitalised whilst staying in obviously untenable environments with a hosereel.

[Colin Murphy]

Well said Messy.  The 80 seconds or so that it takes to completely discharge a 9lt SP Water extinguisher is best spent leggin' it down the corridor with doors shut behind you and the fire alarm sounding.  Anything bigger than a waste paper bin on fire is far too big for the general public to deal with anyway.
No matter how well you train your staff, come the day there's no one out there who will stake his/her reputation on staff reacting as they do in the training environment, evidence fire evacuation drills and the real thing.  
Hosereels, it has to be said have their place, in warehouses, gardens and car washes.  I wonder why operational fire fighters don't use them in high rise buildings instead of dry/wet risers which they can plug into?
There's the compartmentation issue to consider, dragging 20mm x 30/60 metres of hose through fire resisting doors does a great deal for fire stopping!!
You may have gathered that I'm not a huge fan of hosereels, I could be wrong, just haven't seen any evidence of it yet.

[stevew]

fireftrm your approach to the question reminds me so much of those times in the fire service when I was obliged on occassions to follow service policy rather than common sense.  

Your reasons for providing hose reels are  in my view reasons for NOT providing.
Points jusifiably identified by Messy and Colin.

My point about losing the hose reels is an opinion based upon a number of concerns some of which have already been raised by others.  My main point is that in a world of highly trained and experienced fire fighting personnel hose reels would be a consideration.  In Brians case, I would aticipate a situation where staff with very limited training need encouragement to even consider using an extinguisher on a small fire, lety alone a hose reel.    

Portable ffe with its built-in time limit , hands-on training, one fire one extinguisher, constant assesment of the situation by the user, any doubts shut door and leave the area.  I have found that the response by employees to this approach is generally positive.

Confused yet Brian?

[AnthonyB]

With the exception of London (presumably through the london buliding Acts hose reel requirements) everywhere else in the country where we have suggested the removal of hose reels this has been both permitted & in fact encouraged by FSO's.

Even where we do not suggest removal they are getting ripped out on refurbs to make space & no one objects.

Reels are very suited to warehoues, industry & large open spaces, but in offices we find the following:

1) Most reels are not boosted and do not meet flow rate requirements
2) The location of many reels requires them to be run through fire doors, including those onto protected routes & through protected lobbies, thus rendering compartmentation useless
3) People leaving & fire fighters entering can trip over them
4) Despite the impression on training films most reels require two people, one on the drum, one with the hose, even where the reel is annually serviced (which often just entails seeing if water comes out & if you are VERY lucky a flow test on the highest reel)
5) They have an unlimited supply with the risk of staff doing a "towering inferno" & fighting the fire longer than appropriate
6) The most likely source of origin of fire in a modern office is likely to be electrical - water being shot about at 30l/min isn't really helpful
7) They do leak from time to time and are expensive to maintain adequately, more than once they've caused floods

I much prefer to ensure sufficent CO2 extinguishers are around plus the correct amount of A-rated (non powder) extinguishers for the floor area & travel distance, preferring water additive extinguishers that are smaller & easier to use

[dusty]

~I am in agreement with most of AnthonyB points, on the subject of cost, we understand that the water companies only guarantee 0.8 of a bar, and many have turned down the pressure to reduce leaks, with 0.8 of a bar in most situation tanks and pumps are required, making hose reels an exspensive option, we have obopted the same recommendation as AnthonyB.

[fireftrm]

Totally agre that they are an expensive option. Agree with all of Anthony's points.......but the question was 'I have been told that you do not have to have extinguishers in an area that can be reached by a hose reel, is this true?' and yes it is.

I am not a proponent of CO2 exts, they are all but useless on Class A fires, which all but the very rare will be, they make an incredible noise frightening most inexperienced person. Powder should be ignored as too much mess and loss of visibility. AFFF, or water with additives holding the appropriate electrical test against accidental application on live parts is my recommendation. Much cheaper and more useful than CO2 and a lot less frightening to boot.

I also agree with SteveW - no one should be encouraged to use any firefighting equipment unless fully trained, I disagree that highly trained Ffs are required for a hosereel. From experience of training non-fire service persons I have yett o find someone who can't pull out a hosereel and point it at a fire, yet to find anyone confidfent about how to operate and extinguisher though. I do accept that the reels can do most of the things that others say (holding doors open, trip hazards etc. But to go back to the actual question.............. In addition I have never, ever found any building with a fire door wedged open with an extinguisher, any building with extinguishers that were mpty yet still hanging there, never found a building where extinguishers were out of sight behind furniture, doors, cupboards or stock.

Overall if there was a choice I would go for the extinguisher and advice/training for staf fin getting out and not tackling the fire (unless absolutley, 200% certain they were safe). As to a building with hr already provided I would not remove them, or try and sell some extinguishers as well. I would sell the advice/training session I have just mentioned instead. This would be the greatest risk reduction method.

[stevew]

I do not intend to respond to fireftrm on his last entry, I will leave that to others.
Im astonished!!
Fire services in the north east appear to be on a different wavelength to those in the south.

[AnthonyB]

Most fires will involve class A by the time a brigade arrives, but surely most will originate in electrical equipment. Staff are trained only to attack in the initial stages, so would therefore be tackling the fires with an electrical risk present for which CO2 is the only sensible agent. As for noise - if you ar etraining your staff as you should, then they'll know about the loud discharge.

Certainly agree with Water w/ additive or AFFF for general cover using kit thats passed the 35kV test, but not in place of extinguishers marked for electrical use, merely complementary - the last time these were marked as electrically specific was in the early 80's when they were a new invention, but this lasted only a couple of years before liability lawyers warned them off - although Thorn conned BR with it in the early 90's to get the megatastic Halon phase out contract.