F/F in HMO's by tenants

[Ricardo]

I heard it said recently by someone who runs an HMO that the local council HMO environmental officer was in to inspect for the issue of a license, and said that the service users( HMO tenants) must be trained in the use of any fire extinguishers provided or else they must all be removed.( extinguishers not tenants)

I believe this to be nonsense, you can provide such training to employees, and the age old argument is how many employees need training in the use of portable extinguishers in a workplace, and to what level, is it practical hands on and extinguishing an odd fire or two in the back yard, or is watching a  fire extinguisher video with verbal input enough or might a tour of the workplace noting what there is and their locations including some verbal input in how to use them etc. be suffice, I know this argument seems to go on and on.And no doubt every premises and employer will have a differing view in what is deemed suitable for compliance purposes.
We all no doubt know of some employers that say they will not provide any training at all to employees in fighting any size fire, and just train them to evacuate when the fire alarm kicks off.

Of course I try and promote that now there is a duty to mitigate the effects of a fire, and that would include taking measures to prevent a small fire getting out of hand, but some would say they will close doors to mitigate the spread of fire (job done)

I know what the law says with regards to "where necessary"and in order to ensure the safety of relevant persons, the responsible person must ensure the relevant premises are to the extent that is appropriate equipped with appropriate means for fighting fire.

and where necessary appoint competent persons to implement those measures, including adequate training.

But is this making reference to employees alone? I believe it is and not for any HMO tenant to require training in the use of fire extinguishers provided in their "house" or else get whatever you have provided removed, is it not always better to ensure that if you do provide a means of portable fire fighting it is the proper equipment, or there may be a case where someone may just use anything in an attempt to extinguish a fire, such as using a blanket in an attempt to beat the fire out, or go away and fill a basin with some water, and maybe get hurt in the whole process. Any views from the panel on this.

[AnthonyB]

I think the EHO should remember they are an environmental health & housing officer first and foremost and fire safety second - the LACORS guide which they should ideally be working to sets out when you don't need PFE and when you do need/ought to have fire blankets and Powder extinguishers - there is no stipulation that you have to train everyone in the HMO.

It seems the modern trend for PC over the top nonsense that has tainted Health & Safety for years is creeping into Fire.

When I last looked into stats around this there were loads of people in houses that had a go regardless of training and regardless of whether there is an extinguisher, using all sorts of stuff from rugs to water buckets to soil. People despite what you tell them will have a go regardless (moreso if at 'home')and you might as well let them have something with more chance of working & less chance of making things worse.

I would agree with not bothering with water/AFFF extinguishers though that used to be popular in HMO requirements - only really useful for student water fights - and stick to simple ABC powder & even simpler fire blankets (as per LACORS)

[Midland Retty]

Personally I would steer clear of providing extingshers

Firstly it is wholly impractical to "train tenants". It just wouldn't happen.

Secondly there is a plausible argument (yet untested)that if the landlord did provide PFFE, on the basis that the tenants may " want to have a go" at putting out a fire and something goes wrong the landlord could be held responsible.

Unfortunately IME where the landlord provides PFFE it does get vandalised. I see where Anthony is coming from with dry powder extinguishers but bear in mind the mess they can cause, given the risk they may be maliciously used.

I normally recommend fire blankets in the kitchens, but nothing else.

[nearlythere]

I don't know of any F&R Service that recommends any fire safety measure which involves the provision of exinguishers in the home. Not even a damp towel over a chip pan.

[kurnal]

I agree with Retty but as Anthony says the lacors guide does recommend multipurpose extinguishers be provided in he common areas so it is inevitable that Housing Officers will continue to ask for them and then start to invent new legal duties on people in respect of training needs. Lets not forget that Ricardo is in Scotland so there may however be some differences in the recommendations for provision of equipment.

[AnthonyB]

I'd agree with sticking to just blankets - if a tenant really wants an extinguisher they are readily available in the DIY and 'BargainPoundworld' market to buy at their own liability.

[Ricardo]

I just realised it's all my fire netter heroes that have replied, so thanks, as the Prof has said the legislation is ever so slightly different up here that in E&W, we don't use LACORS here and as for HMO's our Act applies to the whole of the licensed house in multiple occupation, rather than just the common parts.

So the dutyholders FRA must include the house as well as any common parts.

I have had a look at the "guide" for small premises providing sleeping accommodation up here, and here are some extracts from it on Fire-fighting Equipment For Use By Persons, there is no specific mention in the guide for provision in any part of an HMO.

Portable fire-fighting equipment should be provided in premises for use by "staff" or other relevant persons, such as "tenants" (where appropriate) that famous sentence again.

"Staff" should not be expected to attempt to extinguish a fire without training ( but no mention this time about tenants)

The law indicates that in some circumstances, competent persons should implement fire-fighting measures and, in this regard, it may NOT be reasonable to expect all persons, in all categories of premises and circumstances, to receive specific training on the use of fire-fighting equipment ,fire extinguishers or fire blankets.

Such persons may include guests staying in a holiday cottage or within a bed and breakfast type establishment for relatively short periods of time. Similarly, it may NOT be practicable for all persons resident for longer periods, for example within an HMO, to receive such training.

If, as a result of the fire risk assessment, it is ascertained that persons on the premises should be permitted to tackle a small fire where they consider it safe to do so, then an appropriate level of "instruction" should be provided for them. For example, this may involve the provision of written instructions for residents in leased holiday home accommodation advising them to familiarise themselves with the location of fire- fighting equipment and the operating instructions on the equipment.

Alternatively, it may involve identifying, where appropriate, a limited number of residents/tenants to fulfil a basic fire marshalling role, such as in certain HMO accommodation.

Would you consider regardless where we are in the country, and regardless of what our different legislation is saying, the provision by the landlord should be no more than a fire blanket if anything within the house/flat, and as Anthony says, if a tenant really wants a F/E then they can go buy one and take responsibility themselves for it.
I am thinking that some of the wording of the guidance lends itself to the possible provision of portable F/E in an HMO, or am I wrong?

[nearlythere]

Would you consider regardless where we are in the country, and regardless of what our different legislation is saying, the provision by the landlord should be no more than a fire blanket if anything within the house/flat, and as Anthony says, if a tenant really wants a F/E then they can go buy one and take responsibility themselves for it.
I am thinking that some of the wording of the guidance lends itself to the possible provision of portable F/E in an HMO, or am I wrong?

In my opinion "no" to provision of any FFFE as you are providing the means for persons to remain in the building to tackle a fire when Fire Service advice is to leave immediately.

[Midland Retty]

Totally agree Nearlythere. I think most of us would want tenants to evacuate rather than tackle a fire. But as AB mentions in the real world people do take matters into their own hands and do fight fires

I think the compromise is as AB suggested - that tenants can provide their own extinguishers in their own lets if they so wish, but the landlord shouldn't provide anything.