Fire Extinguishers in cars.

[Tom Sutton]

I've been having trouble finding some information on the web and wonder if you could please help me? I have a couple of questions related to fire extinguishers in cars. Perhaps if you are unable to answer me directly you could point me in the direction of information on the web?

Is there a recommended area of a car in which to keep a fire extinguisher, for instance is a fixed position in the boot sensible or should it be accessible from the driver's seat?

Secondly, is there any truth in that it is dangerous for a fire extinguisher to be in a car at all, as constantly shaking a container under pressure is likely to eventually cause a fault or even a rupture?

I received the above enquiry today and regards to the second question I cannot see a problem, they have been carried on those big red lorries for quite a time and I am not aware of any major problems but the first question is more of a dilemma. What type, you would consider the best choice, you would be limited to dry powder or CO2 and CO2 would be ruled out on cost. Then how effective would dry powder be considering the damage especially to the engine. As for  location I would go for the boot at least the occupants would be outside the vehicle if things went pear shaped.

Any Views?

[kurnal]

Hi Tom
I suppose its all down to why it is provided and in what circumstances it is to be used.

I would look at the Regulations for taxi cabs , these require a fire extinguisher- 2kg dry powder if I recall and I believe there are some rules on where these should be fitted. You may be able to research this and perhaps there may be some guidance int he licensing conditions for some areas.

Then theres the RAC which sets out rules and guidance for rally cars - they may well have some guidance notes that may be relevant.
Clearly for most vehicles there is no mandatory requirement, if I was to choose for firefighting capability I would love to recommend CTC or BCF but I cant anymore. So we will have to make do with multi purpose dry powder due to the mixed fire risk environment - there really is nothing better available now. I would fasten it down pretty firmly in an easily accessible position in the boot. And dont forget to have it serviced or throw it away when it is due for test discharge. I have never heard of any problems or failures caused by mounting the extinguisher in a vehicle apart from the old chestnuts about the powder caking (as recently discussed) 

[Tom Sutton]

Thanks Kurnal I agree 100%, what ever happened to those lovely CTC that stained everything with that red dye.

I have looked at PSV but not taxis or rally cars I shall google right away.

[Clevelandfire 3]

Powder extinguishers are the most effective and widely available. Co2 is not available in a convenient size for motor vehicle use and reignition can occur in car fires where co2 is used anyway. Powder is not too much of a problem it cant get into any major engine parts unless there is heavy damage from fire, it is messy but if you have a fire in the inetrior of the car the last thing you are going to worry about is the powder. Motor sport regs dictate use of dry powder.

[AnthonyB]

Right, lets get this one sorted.......

1. Taxis. No fixed legal requirement - each council will specify their own requirements, which can be anything from a 600g BC powder aerosol to a 2 litre AFFF

2. Minibuses & PCV's. Must be fitted with an extinguisher rated either 8A or 21B and may be water (yes I know!), foam or BCF. Powder is prohibited and cannot be used. Traditionally a 1 quart CTC, then a 1.5 kilo BCF was used - since the demise of BCF the industry uses 1 litre and 2 litre AFFF extinguishers

3. ADR. Various combinations based on load quantity, but always includes a 2 or 3 kilo ABC powder to the cab plus the appropriate combination of load extinguishers

4. Motorsport to FIA regulations. Always used to be BCF, for vehicles fixed and portables are now mostly AFFF or Clean Agent. Track crews use Powder, or in the UK Powder & AFFF for the superior 'four by two' attack method.

4. Other. No fixed requirements. CO2 was never used in vehicles, the choice was BCF (gone), ABC/BC powder or AFFF spray.  Usually either ABC Powder or AFFF is used and is recommended to be at least 2 kilo/litre.

5. Location. Never, ever, ever the boot! Must be in the footwell in a transport bracket. Car fires are very difficult and hazardous to tackle and you must attack at once if you are to stand any chance with your 8 seconds of discharge. All guidance from every organisation under the sun including the Home Office leaflets since the year dot cautions never to put them in the boot.

6. Boom? An extinguisher will not go boom if rattling around in a car!

7.Powder compaction. Not an issue with most extinguishers as they are stored pressure - however - France & Germany still retain a love for 1 & 2 kilo cartridge powders (dropped in the UK in 1996 by the last big manufacturer TG) and German cartridge 1 & 2 kilo ABC/BC Powders are sold in some motor accessory shops and on eBay - these may suffer from compaction after a while and are the only example of a situation where the extinguisher should still be inverted & shaken regularly.

My 2 kilo Amerex ABC powder sits happily in a transport bracket in the footwell, no rattles. There's more in the back but they are reserves.

[nearlythere]

Right, lets get this one sorted.......

1. Taxis. No fixed legal requirement - each council will specify their own requirements, which can be anything from a 600g BC powder aerosol to a 2 litre AFFF

2. Minibuses & PCV's. Must be fitted with an extinguisher rated either 8A or 21B and may be water (yes I know!), foam or BCF. Powder is prohibited and cannot be used. Traditionally a 1 quart CTC, then a 1.5 kilo BCF was used - since the demise of BCF the industry uses 1 litre and 2 litre AFFF extinguishers

3. ADR. Various combinations based on load quantity, but always includes a 2 or 3 kilo ABC powder to the cab plus the appropriate combination of load extinguishers

4. Motorsport to FIA regulations. Always used to be BCF, for vehicles fixed and portables are now mostly AFFF or Clean Agent. Track crews use Powder, or in the UK Powder & AFFF for the superior 'four by two' attack method.

4. Other. No fixed requirements. CO2 was never used in vehicles, the choice was BCF (gone), ABC/BC powder or AFFF spray.  Usually either ABC Powder or AFFF is used and is recommended to be at least 2 kilo/litre.

5. Location. Never, ever, ever the boot! Must be in the footwell in a transport bracket. Car fires are very difficult and hazardous to tackle and you must attack at once if you are to stand any chance with your 8 seconds of discharge. All guidance from every organisation under the sun including the Home Office leaflets since the year dot cautions never to put them in the boot.

6. Boom? An extinguisher will not go boom if rattling around in a car!

7.Powder compaction. Not an issue with most extinguishers as they are stored pressure - however - France & Germany still retain a love for 1 & 2 kilo cartridge powders (dropped in the UK in 1996 by the last big manufacturer TG) and German cartridge 1 & 2 kilo ABC/BC Powders are sold in some motor accessory shops and on eBay - these may suffer from compaction after a while and are the only example of a situation where the extinguisher should still be inverted & shaken regularly.

My 2 kilo Amerex ABC powder sits happily in a transport bracket in the footwell, no rattles. There's more in the back but they are reserves.

You missed the motorbike AB.  I thought somewhere near the ash try might be good.

[Midland Retty]

or even the ash tray, Nearlythere!

[nearlythere]

or even the ash tray, Nearlythere!

Yeh. Somewhere between the two.

[Tom Sutton]

AB first what do you mean by the the superior 'four by two' attack method?

What is the physical size of a 2l or 2kg extinguisher?

Where would you site the extinguisher in a bog standard saloon car if you use the drivers footwell it could easily cause problems with the controls and if in the passengers side you will have the delay you are trying to avoid. Also I would want to clear all the passengers before attempting to tackle the fire and if you had to go to the boot this would ensure this or is there some other safety concerns. I my experience car fires do not develop that quickly unless malicious ignition is the cause and remember the TV image is an invention of the film industry.

[nearlythere]

I would have concerns also with putting such equipment in floorwells. I have seen too many mangled ankles and lower legs in crushed floor wells without adding another metal object, including its holder, in such a place.

[AnthonyB]

Motorbikes generally used miniature CBM extinguishers such as the 'Presto'. police motorbikes used to bracket BCF extinguishers to the pannier.

If you have got a tight footwell I would agree it can be awkward - the boot is viable as long as it is bracketed in a place that is not easily obstructed - too many are just chucked in the back and get buried under junk.

2 litre/kilo extinguisher is around 400mm H x 110mm dia

I've seen a lot of footage of car fires and you have to be very quick and good to get it with anything less than 2 kilo - it's all down to how fast you notice it.

'Four by two' relates to the technique developed in the UK for dealing with Motorsport fires by track marshals. You have a team of four marshals, two with a 9 kilo Powder extinguisher (ideally Monnex or Purple K, but this is now rare due to cost) and two with 9 litre Air Foam branchpipe extinguishers (now AFFF Spray).

As you have in effect a shielded fire to prevent flash back and chasing the fire in circles the two powders go in first from different sides to give rapid knockdown to protect the driver.
However as powder offers no burn back resistance the two foams follow behind laying a blanket on the spill and cooling the structure of the vehicle.

This way even if the powders don't get it all out you have a vastly reduced fire due to the partial foam blanket and even if you do put it out you don't have to worry about reignition.

The problem with relying just on powder and to why you need good live fire training if you are relying on a first aid attack for life safety in high risk situations is graphically illustrated here in the Paletti crash of 1982;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gmz9_FdWD5c&feature=related

Although the impact injuries were the primary cause of death, the fire didn't help and it is alleged that the large quantities of powder (from my reckoning nearly 100kilo) didn't help (although not toxic the finely divided powder is not a good thing to breath in when you have chest and lung injuries)

[Psuedonym]

Having had the pleasure of driving too far for too long, I come accross the odd engine fire on the motorway. If all you have is a 2Kg powder, then don't bother taking the pin out. (don't even think about using CO2 - I won't bore you with the reasons) Get yourself and companions out to a safe spot and phone the emergency services.
Or..To put out an engine, tyres etc(alone): after carefully opening the lid, using your fire blanket (which of course you carry on board) to protect your hands and personal bits, have something handy before you start to hold itwedged open to allow you access (Praying you can open it with locking wire/mechanism springs not melted which can be a bit tedious when red hot -  and trying to open a lid fully is suicidal) so you can go and pick up the powder, (lids had a habit of falling back down and locking again which is a pain), blast the area with your 9Kg ABC powder  to knock the flames down and back it up with a 9Lt AFFF, sometimes two. That plus a bit of experience.
If you ain't got all that then leave it. (I averaged 4 /5 engine fires a year, now its just a case of helping folk to a safe spot as I don't carry anything like the size you need for an engine fire, that plus our firm don't like possible litigation issues - so the couple on board are for my own use if needed)
So in answer to the first question: One Fire Blanket, one 9Kg Power, two 9Lt AFFF. Store werever you want just make them secure and accessable.
Option Two (assuming you don't sell/service fire equipment) do what it says on the tin: Get Out Stay Out.

Regulations are fine but without the knowhow, training or appropriate kit you're putting lives at risk, something the box tickers seem to forget..

[Tom Sutton]

Psuedonym  I suspect the cars fire you coma across will be well developed fires and if that is so then I agree with you. But all portable fire fighting equipment is designed the attack fire in the initial stages and that applies to car fires even more so. If you cannot tackle a car fire within the first 30secs then you don't have much of a chance of being successful also if the fuel lines are fractured and leaking, especially petrol, then move to a safe distance because now you are in big red lorry territory. In my experience most cars fire are wiring insulation and/or residual oil on the engine block which can be extinguished successfully if dealt with properly.

[AnthonyB]

Psuedonym is right about the difficulties and you do have to be very, very quick (or lucky) to catch a fire early enough for your small d/p to stand a chance - on a motorway you probably wouldn't notice the fire until it was too well developed for a small f/e to get near.

passed a car today on the M6 - total burnout and even the fence was going up, yet it's location was such it wouldn't have been that long for the two pumps that were on scene to have arrived.

My car footwell extinguisher has only ever been used on non vehicle stuff where it's coped well (except for the one that didn't work as someone had mixed the powder in it  and it caked! )

I've only put out vehicle stuff at motorsport with a lot more heavy duty kit.

Should I come across a car fire that 2 kilo of ABC is too tame for & there's a life risk then it's over to the Monnex & AFFF in the back.....

It was easier in the old days when you could happily chuck a few kilos of BCF through the grille......

[Tom Sutton]

It was easier in the old days when you could happily chuck a few kilos of BCF through the grille......

True, even CTC and they were quite effective on Post Boxes as well, providing you stuffed up the letter aperture with a deck cloth.  They were the days:)