Flush Call-points

[Ken Taylor]

Could someone tell me who now does flush-fitting fire alarm call-points (not shallow surface-mounted) suitable for use in a sports hall?

[Allen Higginson]

You're going to have to enlighten me on that one,I'm not getting what your getting at!!

[Graeme]

Ken,
     mcp's have to project by 15mm from wall to comply with the c.o.p so can't be flush.

Or do you mean a mcp to go onto a metal back box which is flushed into wall?

In that case order the mcp without the surface back box and raggle a 25mm deep metal box into the wall.

you can also fit the plastic hinged covers to existing mcp's to protect them against hits from footballs etc but are a variation from the c.o.p

[Ken Taylor]

I'm trying to find current thinking and availability for satisfying the client's need for no surface projections in a sports hall and that for three mcps by final exits therefrom. Other items like door furniture and swithes have been set flush and, as BSs are not the rule of law, was wondering if there is a designed solution out there for the projecting mcp rather than the on-site 'bodge'.

[Graeme]

i would doubt it.All mcp manufacturers make them to comply with current standards,so they won't make one to be flush with a wall.

[Brian Catton]

This is an interesting one. Have the clients considered the likelihood of someone running along the wall into a shallow surface mounted call point. Not very likely I would suggest. What about door handles, push bars, etc and are there any extinguishers in the hall?
On the same subject I recently dealt with a problem where a conventional surface alarm point was being knocked off the wall by a learning disability patient using his elbow. This will now be shallow surface mounted, instead of a box being put oiver it as the client suggested.
If I find a manufaturer that does the flush box I will let you know.

[messy]

I assume that MCPs cannot be flush fitted so that they are visible on approach from any direction. If this is the case, and if the sports hall can justify why flush call points are required (even if it's contrary to 5839) then surely there's no problem.

If the MCP is flush fitted and highlighted, say by a 75 mm  line painted around it in a contrasting colour and/or it's location is indicated by signage, if necessary, projecting 90 degrees from the wall above head height, and staff are trained/informed - then why the fuss?

Surely it's more likely that somebody may injure themselves on a protruding MCP in a sports hall, than it is that they may have difficulty finding it in the event of fire!!??

Am I missing something here?

[Allen Higginson]

If they're going to bump into something that protrudes out 15mm then they're gonna hit the wall as well - do they suggest padded walls? (although I have considered one myself the odd time).I'm all for risk assessment and no one should pick up a screwdriver without carrying out one, but there has to be a consideration of reasonable risk.On the other side of the coin I had a local city council who assessed that there was a risk that the glass could be broken by a football.Solution? - 3/4 inch box steel guard which protruded out a good 4 inches! I brought it to the centre managers attention that the risk of accidental activation by a ball was,at best, minmal and that that of someone becoming seriously injured was very likely.Despite letting him throw a ball at the unit from all angles until his heart was content he never once broke the glass.I even let him try a tennis ball with the same result.Guards were then removed from the other 4 MCP's.

[Graeme]

i have yet to have a damaged mcp in a sports hall.The most frequent damage happens to sounders,which can be easily rectified with a cage.
If you order a "flush" call point from a manufacturers,you will get a call point without the red surface back box.It is mounted to a box flushed into the wall,but the call point still projects out from the wall.
I have never heard of or seen a call point thats designed to be completely flush with the wall and if you tried with a standard call point-how would you get the front cover on or off?
If someone knows different let me know and i will take it all back.

[Ken Taylor]

To respond to Brian's points, all surfaces to the Sports Hall (designed to national competition standards) have been specified to be flush up to 2.5m. This includes door handles furniture and switch gear. This has been achieved (even the 'panic-bars' are recessed and the fire extinguishers are in recessed cabinets with signage) with the exception of the mcps. I have been around long enough to have seen flush-fitted call-points in the distant past but they seem to no longer be available. This is not to do with accidental activation or breaking 'glass' but protecting players for a range of sports. The situation now is that the client has asked for a projection free surface, the designer wants to achieve this but the approved inspector wants BS mcps. So I am just trying to find out if there is a current way around the situation that will still allow access and testing and be acceptable to the client.

[Paul]

Ken,

I don't wish to teach you to suck eggs, but, I would argue the toss with the inspector.  On a risk assess basis, that the risk of injury to persons using the facility far out weighs the risk of persons not being able to find a MCP that is flush fitted, especially if the MCP's are sufficiently signed, its just not going to happen.

BS's are all well and good, but there are scenarios where you have to assess if they are practical.  And I would argue that in this case they are not.

only my opinion.

Paul

[Ken Taylor]

I agree of course. I'm trying to find what happens elsewhere in similar situations and whether anyone knows of a manufacturer or supplier that has a purpose-made answer - similar to that for door furniture, 'panic bars' and the like.