Dangerous Substances

[BLEVE]

dp
but is that considered to be a suitable & sufficient risk assessment. Ultimately you are off scot free but the RP is not.

[dpjohno]

There is no need to lecture or to quote chapter and verse old boy. If I find a DSEAR substance I ask for the DSEAR risk assessment. If they do not have one, I advise them to undertake one. similarly with plant and machinery, the advice is to operate in compliance with apprpriate HS guidance. Dave

[BLEVE]

Flour can be a dsear substance. IMO you cannot complete a FRA without having sight of an existing DSEAR RA or carrying one out on the spot.  
Also, and lets be clear, you carry out a FRA but then provide advice to have someone else carry out an assessment of fuel and ignition sources.

[dpjohno]

LMAO? Getting a tad pompous now old boy. Do you also undertake the periodic inspect of the electrical installation when necessary? ;-)

[BLEVE]

RRFSO
Calls for DS to be considered explicitly lad plus DS can have an immediateeffect on building structure & MOE

[dpjohno]

ha-ha lad! I wish. You do yours...I'll do mine....take care. Dave

[Tom Sutton]

So I guess we can remove any requirement to assess risk from dangerous substances or explosive atmospheres from the RRFSO?

Yes, I do not see why it was included in the RR(FS)O because it is dealt with by the HSE and one aim of the RR(FS)O was to reduce all the unnecessary fire legislation and two regulations doing the same job doesn't make sense.

Because it has been included then I would consider ensuring compliance with DSEAR by the FR assessor would suffice. As for the RP it is his/her responsibility under both pieces of legislation and should be made aware of it.

What did surprise me was how close the relevant articles in the RR(FS)O are to the DSEAR almost cut and paste, but it shouldn't, with all the other cock ups from the DCLG.

[BLEVE]

never the less it is clearly included and required meaning that we consider it during the fire risk assessment or are capable of understanding a third party report on this matter

Trouble is that the third party report is sometines wide of the mark

[Tom Sutton]

I accept that but it still doesn't make sense to me and I will try to get hold of the consultation document to see if there is any explanations there.

[Mr. P]

I comment on hazards present (coshh, hazmat etc). Therefore also, that measures are/not taken to manage them. That's not a get out. You do not need to be an expert in all fields, but you should know your limits, and, what to do if you reach or extend those limits.

[BLEVE]

Mr P. I have no problem with someone recognising their limitations.
However, The presence of DS within a building has the potential to compromise the general fire safety arrangements within that building. The RRFSO does not require consideration of COSHH etc, it does specify the consideration and assessment of Dangerous Substances as a part of the fire risk assessment process.

You cannot complete the fire risk assessment in a suitable & sufficient manner by not recognising the effects that the DS has on the general fire safety arrangements. To that end IMO it is not acceptable to simply state that the RP should carry out a risk assessment in compliance with DSEAR etc. Similarly, a number of fire risk assessors may review the significant findings of a DSEAR report without having a clue what they are looking at and in a number of cases DSEAR assessments can and have been carried out by assessors without the competence to do so.

 

[Midland Retty]

Mr P. I have no problem with someone recognising their limitations.
However, The presence of DS within a building has the potential to compromise the general fire safety arrangements within that building. The RRFSO does not require consideration of COSHH etc, it does specify the consideration and assessment of Dangerous Substances as a part of the fire risk assessment process.

You cannot complete the fire risk assessment in a suitable & sufficient manner by not recognising the effects that the DS has on the general fire safety arrangements. To that end IMO it is not acceptable to simply state that the RP should carry out a risk assessment in compliance with DSEAR etc. Similarly, a number of fire risk assessors may review the significant findings of a DSEAR report without having a clue what they are looking at and in a number of cases DSEAR assessments can and have been carried out by assessors without the competence to do so.

 

In essence I would agree with what you are saying Bleve.

[dpjohno]

Flour can be a dsear substance. IMO you cannot complete a FRA without having sight of an existing DSEAR RA or carrying one out on the spot.  
Also, and lets be clear, you carry out a FRA but then provide advice to have someone else carry out an assessment of fuel and ignition sources.

Hey BLEVE!
I conducted a FRA in a pie shop in the town where they actually use flour to make them! 
Do you think I should conduct a DSEAR RA?   
I think it might be self-raising! 

[nearlythere]

How many in the F&RS would be qualified or competent to audit a DSEAR FRA?

[dpjohno]

How many in your industry would be competent to spell competent?