FA Commissioning

[nearlythere]

I have always thought that fire alarm commissioning should or must be undertaken by someone other than the installer.
Am I right or wrong or was I right at one time?

[Wiz]

The current BS recommendations do not ask for such and I don't believe it ever has.

However, it makes sense to get someone else to do it.

The BS commissioning recommendations include checking most of the installation work recommendations. Obviously an installer who has done something wrong because they don't know the BS recommendations, is hardly likely to suddenly know them when they start commissioning! They will commission the system as being perfect because they know no better!

By the way, BS recommended commissioning, does not include checking the design. So mistakes made by the designer will not be picked up on commissioning

I believe that commissioning is so important that it should always be done by an entirely inedependent party from the designers and installers, and, in fact, the commissioning should also include checking the design.

[Tom Sutton]

How often are Certificates for design, installation and commissioning of the system available during an audit, also the remainder of the documentation. Always Some times Never? I love poles but don't know how to do them.

[kurnal]

Sadly its only sometimes in my experience.

 

I love poles but don't know how to do them.

I may be able to advise you Thomas but it had better be by private message.

[Midland Retty]

How often are Certificates for design, installation and commissioning of the system available during an audit, also the remainder of the documentation. Always Some times Never? I love poles but don't know how to do them.

Generally speaking, never. It even suprises me that in buildings merely a couple of years old the occupier doesn't seem to hang onto 'As Fitted' and/or commissioning documentation relating to plant, mechanical services, fire precautions etc.

Sometimes there will be a building handbook, but the original occupier moves out, and forgets to pass on the handbook to the new occupier.

[Graeme]

The current BS recommendations do not ask for such and I don't believe it ever has.

However, it makes sense to get someone else to do it.

The BS commissioning recommendations include checking most of the installation work recommendations. Obviously an installer who has done something wrong because they don't know the BS recommendations, is hardly likely to suddenly know them when they start commissioning! They will commission the system as being perfect because they know no better!

By the way, BS recommended commissioning, does not include checking the design. So mistakes made by the designer will not be picked up on commissioning

I believe that commissioning is so important that it should always be done by an entirely inedependent party from the designers and installers, and, in fact, the commissioning should also include checking the design.

agree and disagree Wiz.

Yes to an independant commissioning engineer to a sparky installation for all the reasons noted.

No to a differenet person within a Company or another company to Commission installs by a reputable fire company who might not have many employees and do not want to pay an outside company to check what should be a good installation.

[Graeme]

and half and half on commission engineer checking design.

yes they can make mistakes and anything obvious should be pointed out but as they have taken on the responsibility of designer and "issued a signed design certificate" to tell us to the best of his/her knowledge the design complies. Unless there is really something stand out obvious like a call point missing or a smoke detector in the kitchen then should it be necessary to check over all the design again? as the commissioning engineer is having the lovelly job of checking the installation against the design.

[Galeon]

And if you can get your hands on a G1 cert , all the ones I have seen always have verification by the purchaser or user always ticked and anyhow on the commissioning cert it refers bigger implications that you should know more than just making sure the system works.

[GregC]

quote Wiz

The current BS recommendations do not ask for such and I don't believe it ever has. Agree

However, it makes sense to get someone else to do it. Disagree

Obviously an installer who has done something wrong because they don't know the BS recommendations. No excuse!

By the way, BS recommended commissioning, does not include checking the design. So mistakes made by the designer will not be picked up on commissioning - Agree

I believe that commissioning is so important that it should always be done by an entirely inedependent party from the designers and installers, and, in fact, the commissioning should also include checking the design. This is called verification is it not?

[Wiz]

Greg C, if you are talking about the BS verification certificate, this an entirely optional certificate that can be asked for especially when the design, installation and commissioning have been carried out by different organisations.

My opinion is that the commissioning should be carried out by a different organisation than that which carried out the design or installation for a truly independent inspection. There be lots of arguments but would be more likely to uncover deviations from Bs

[GregC]

Wiz, I agree with your statement of the certificate being optional, however according to the BAFE process map for issues of a SP203 certificate, verification is not an option and must be completed before a BAFE approved certificate is issued.

Personally I know of many companies that are SP230 accredited who conveniently overlook this rule.

[Galeon]

It all boils down to you either know your onions or you don't .
If you regularly do the refresher courses go on this type of site and keep up to date you have half a chance .
All of us our bound at some time to get it wrong , but to be a repeat offender is another story.
I see it all the time , forget all the hype , test the individual within a governing body thats how to deal with it in my view .

[Wiz]

Wiz, I agree with your statement of the certificate being optional, however according to the BAFE process map for issues of a SP203 certificate, verification is not an option and must be completed before a BAFE approved certificate is issued.

Personally I know of many companies that are SP230 accredited who conveniently overlook this rule.

GregC, what does it matter what the BARFE process map requires? They can, and probably will in time, ask for all sorts documents and more financial recompenses to justify their existence.
We were not talking about the issue of a SP203 certificate, we were talking about whether BS5839 commissioning could/should be carried out by the system installer. You brought up the verification certificate. I confirmed it was optional within the BS criteria. It might be obligatory for BARFE, but I also believe it is obligatory for the Outer Outer Scottish islands retained fire service (weekends only) quango inspection commitee. And who cares what they think about verification certificates when discussing whether a commissioning should be carried out by the installer?

[GregC]

Wiz, I only expanded on your comments that were indeed also off topic from the original question

[Wiz]

Greg C, I know you to well to get dragged into your little game on a busy Friday! Maybe someone else will bite!