Definition of Domestic Premises

[Tom Sutton]

English and Welsh definition

"domestic premises" means premises occupied as a private dwelling (including any garden, yard, garage, outhouse, or other appurtenance of such premises which is not used in common by the occupants of more than one such dwelling);

Scottish definition

“domestic premises” means premises occupied as a private dwelling (including a stair, passage, garden, yard, garage, outhouse or other appurtenance of such premises which is used in common by the occupants of more than one such dwelling);

In Scotland does this means if “any a stair, passage, garden, yard, garage, outhouse, or other appurtenance of such premises” is not used in common by the occupants of more than one such dwelling then it’s not a domestic premises? If this is the case then single family home is a relevant premises and subject to the F(S)A 2005.


Check out http://www.opsi.gov.uk/legislation/scotland/acts2005/asp_20050005_en_6  section 78 for more details.

[jokar]

It's amazing isn't it, when legislation that is supposed to enact European legislation can be so varied.  Laird Todd in his ancestral home can have many buildings not subject to the Fire Scotland Act but in his Surrey constituency has to ensure that his many properties are risk assessed causing pain and financial hardship.  Is it that there are less deaths in those types of property in Scotland as opposed to
E and W or did the authors of the E and W bit just bget in wrong in their haste to get the legislation on the statute book?  Worse still did they not understand what they were doing?

[CivvyFSO]

“domestic premises” means premises occupied as a private dwelling (including a stair, passage, garden, yard, garage, outhouse or other appurtenance of such premises which is used in common by the occupants of more than one such dwelling);

In Scotland does this means if “any a stair, passage, garden, yard, garage, outhouse, or other appurtenance of such premises” is not used in common by the occupants of more than one such dwelling then it’s not a domestic premises? If this is the case then single family home is a relevant premises and subject to the F(S)A 2005.

I believe your logic is faulted Tom.

It means that you have a definition of domestic premises being a premises occupied as a private dwelling, and areas shared between a number of such dwellings are also domestic. The sentence defines what IS domestic, it does not define what is NOT domestic.

If you are a man wearing a kilt, despising the english, and spend your time saying "och aye the noo", then you are Scottish. This does not mean that men who are not wearing kilts, despising the English and saying "Och aye the noo" are not Scottish. (The probability is high, but that is not what it is saying)

[Tom Sutton]

Thanks Civvy are you saying there are two statements the first up to dwelling and that in brackets, is another statement if so why didn't they use the word "and" instead of "including". The way I read it was, the second statement qualified the first.

[CivvyFSO]

After staring at it for ages, I think I see what you mean.

I believe you are reading it as "Domestic premises is a premises occupied as; a private dwelling WHICH INCLUDES a stair, passage etc used in common... etc"

I am quite sure that the way to read it is:

“domestic premises” means premises occupied as a private dwelling... And in addition to this, the following is also classed as domestic premises: a stair, passage, garden, yard, garage, outhouse or other appurtenance of such premises which is used in common by the occupants of more than one such dwelling

[Mike Buckley]

I see what you mean however the way I would read it is in the English version you cannot include areas which are used by people other than the occupants of the dwelling whereas in the Scottish version you can. Hence if you take a yard surrounded by dwellings, in the English version the yard cannot be classified as part of a domestic dwelling whereas in Scotland it can. 

[Tom Sutton]

If you apply  the above reasoning to the definition of a domestic premises in Scotland then all common areas of flats, tenements, including multi story blocks of flats would be exempt from the F(S)A 2005 is this the situation in Scotland? Also is there any other fire safety legislation, other than building regs, covering these premises?

[colin todd]

Thomas, yes they are excluded and sensibly so. Yes, to some extent there is other legislation, but it does not really matter.

Civvy, Scottish people never despise the English, they feel sorry for them and their accident of birth, which is not their fault.  They also despair at the education system that fails to teach people how to interpret simple english.

[Tom Sutton]

Thank you Colin as for you jibe about the simple English for myself I understand the English definition perfectly but simply copying and removing the word "not" doesn't do justice for Scottish definition and it should have been rewritten leaving no ambiguities, I am sure Chrissie Maher would agree.

[colin todd]

I was not ever aware that there were any ambiguities-it is the first time I have ever heard that. Who is this Chrissie bird?

[Galeon]

Colin dear chap ,

Chrissie launched Plain English Campaign in 1979 by shredding hundreds of government forms

She aint that clever never did my tax demand...........

[Tom Sutton]

I was not ever aware that there were any ambiguities-it is the first time I have ever heard that.

Then you have never read it with an open mind. My god I hope I will not now be struck by a thunder bolt from the Almighty!!!

[colin todd]

Pauley, I have just found her on the net. She was born in 1938.  Do you think she went to school with kurnal's kids?

Thomas, there are 8 fire and rescue authorities in scotland, plus an army of civil servants, none of whom, to the best of my knowledge, have ever been in the least confused or doubtful about this aspect of the legislation. The only people I have ever heard of being confused before on this matter is tutors from the ENGLISH fire service college and your goodself.

[Tom Sutton]

Scotland a wonderful place spent many wonderful holidays there and did a fire investigation course under the auspicious of one of your premier universities with Professor Rasbash one of the lecturers.

However I still say the Scottish definition of domestic premises could have been made clearer. The final statement says “which is used in common by the occupants of more than one such dwelling” what’s the situation if it’s only one such dwelling? When they plagiarised the E&W definition if they had ignored the final statement it would have certainly been much clearer to me and maybe the FSC.

Incidentally Chrissie was born a few streets from me a couple of years later and we may have to the same school but there was nobody named Kurnal there as far as I remember.

[CivvyFSO]

Tom

It would seem intentionally worded as to ensure that the common areas of flats do not come under the legislation.

Any other part of just one dwelling would simply be part of the dwelling. It seems quite simple to me; my drive is unquestionably part of my dwelling, as is my house, as is my garage, as is my garden. Now if I lived in some flats, there is a bit of a question as to whether the common hall/corridor is a dwelling as it is clearly does not belong to me, or any other flat owner. The Scottish definition clears it up nicely imho.