Author Topic: Small Public House  (Read 11292 times)

jakespop

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Small Public House
« on: October 01, 2010, 10:55:26 AM »
 I have come across an existing premises with absolutely nothing in place and living accommodation, with separate access, above. Whilst I would normally be recommending a Pt 1 system with a sounder in flat above, I have seen Pt 6 systems in small premises like this. Has anyone any views?

Offline AnthonyB

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Re: Small Public House
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2010, 11:38:30 AM »
Depends on the fire service whose area it is in - the reason I say this is because having had to do some research into notices and thus trawled through a lot of brigade enforcement databases this type of premises has a strong likelihood of inspection and a PN (or at least an EN), so it pays to see where they come from to avoid a drawn our argument over the FRA and the system it recommends.

That aside I'd prefer the extra ruggedness of a Part 1 system with fire rated cabling as although small premises it's high risk - but that isn't to say a part 6 system isn't out of the question - a lot depends on the actual premises themselves and also the cost differences as if it's not much between the two go for the Part 1.

All the PN & EN's I've seen on the databases that give some detail refer to Part 1 so that gives you an idea of the thinking.
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Offline kurnal

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Re: Small Public House
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2010, 11:52:49 AM »
I  would suggest that you need to be clear exactly who the alarm system is designed to protect. If it is purely for the protection of persons living in domestic accommodation above  the pub, and no alarm is needed in the pub itself, becasue the building is very small a Part 6 system may be appropriate.

If any electrical  alarm is needed for the pub then IMO it must be a part 1 system.

The very smallest pubs, where the whole of the area is visible from behind the bar, may be ok using word of mouth or the time bell within the pub itself.

Offline colin todd

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Re: Small Public House
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2010, 12:53:19 PM »
Sometimes Kurnal pubs have ceilings........................................
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline kurnal

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Re: Small Public House
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2010, 03:21:19 PM »
Exactly Colin. That is why I started with the word IF.

I did think about explaining about purpose groups and one hour ceilings but decided there are too many imponderables. After all that would lead to further questions about firestopping, fire doors and so on. So I stuck to answering the question.

And perhaps, considering that this building does not already have a fire alarm it probably has nothing else either, similar to most pubs that I see.

Did I ever tell you about my Mother In Law?  I happily do all her decorating and gardening but she never sees the good in what I do and just points out to friends and neighbours the tiny gaps where the drops of paper do not quite lap together or the slight mismatches in the pattern. You know I am always in a big hurry and if she would only give me a tiny bit of assistance it would lead to a so much better finish to the job.

Good job I love her, though at least if I chose I could divorce the missus and be free from her criticism I suppose.

But I am such a thick skinned, broad shouldered genial chap it all washes over me.

Offline Tom Sutton

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Re: Small Public House
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2010, 05:46:35 PM »
Go for the jugular Kurnal.  ;D
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline colin todd

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Re: Small Public House
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2010, 12:40:48 AM »
Just as well that the squint wallpaper could not lead someone to leaving people at risk from fire then, isn't it. Purpose groups are irrelevant in the case in question. But if people come here and ask questions about fire safety matters, they MAY think that the answers they get are definitive and have not overlooked something significant. If they could think of the thing that their free consultant has overlooked they probably wouldnt need other people to sort out their consultancy problems in the first place.

To be honest, I think firenet has become a serious liability to itself and all those who use it for (and give) free consultancy, which is a purpose for which it was not originally intended.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline kurnal

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Re: Small Public House
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2010, 07:00:15 AM »

Thanks Colin.
The original posting did not state who occupied the living accommodation?

I was not around in the earliest days of the site, so cannot really speak about its original purpose. By the time I joined it was very much as it is now. I guess only the owner can comment on his original intentions.

Its a very valid point to explore though and assuming you have no objection I will post your last point as a question on a seperate thread in the meeting room.

Offline Davo

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Re: Small Public House
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2010, 08:02:02 PM »
Colin

Is there an original terms doc?


Prof

Shame on you, over 80 years old , at least you could foot the ladder ::)

davo

Offline colin todd

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Re: Small Public House
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2010, 08:28:33 PM »
Big Al,  I think that this would be a very useful point to air, and perhaps some of us could get legal opinion as well?

I was around in the early days. Though I have never before said much about the fact, I actually bought Colin Simpson his very first server out of my own pocket (as he will confirm) when the site became too big for the ISP, because Colin is a very good egg and put the site up to help fire safety (as opposed to help people flog their services).  In those days, it was mostly about general discussion (quite a bit of banter), people keeping each other informed about changes in standards (so good CPD), some of my chums in the fire and rescue service interested in interpretation of standards, etc.

It is only in recent years that, as a result of people with dubious expertise and experience selling their services to an unsuspecting world that people have the blatant cheek to set out all details of their consultancy projects and ask people to give them the answer.   It is clear from many of the questions that their competence to sell their services is doubtful.

I will be honest, for me, I stopped answering most questions and stopped helping people (other than the fire and rescue services, who are not asking questions so that they can earn more money) when a guy who worked for the FPA (unbeknown to any of my friends in that organization) started putting consultancy job after consultancy job on these boards so he could find out what to advise the FPA clients.  Given that the FPA sell their consultancy services on the basis of being "the UK's national fire safety organization" I thought that this was arrogant and morally wrong. Indeed, we lost a consultancy job for a multi national which was to look at  fire safety requirements of different countries because the FPA supposedly had better access to the information through their networking with sister organizations in the countries. As soon as the FPA were appointed, the guy was on firenet asking everyone if they could help him with the fire safety legislation and requirements for the countries in question. To their credit, FPA responded to a complaint about the guy.

However, as someone not eeking out a fire brigade pension, I work hard to keep up to date, and spend a small fortune each year making sure the consultancy team do the same and to provide a good service to clients to earn a decent living. So why would I , at the end of a day doing consultancy for 12 hours, do some more free for other consultants.

None of this deals with the liability issue of course. There is no doubt that you have the same liability for the free advice you dish out so liberally, based on sparse information, as the "proper" consultancy you do for a fee. All anyone would need to prove is that they relied on the advice and could reasonably expect you to have the expertise to give a full and considered reply.

 I frequently look at replies from posters and the questions to which they respond with horror at the misinformation, wrong advice and the fact that just one bit of missing information, that any competent consultant would wish to have before even offering a preliminary opinion, could totally change the validity of the reply. Worse still some unsuspecting client is paying for the advice gleaned , as it were, down the pub. Even worse, people may rely on the quick fire off the cuff answers, based on inadequate information, for their safety unless someone else bobs up and bothers to correct it.

Feel free to paste this as a debate somewhere else if you wish. I myself am leaving the fireground and returning home station via firstly the chip shop and thereafter the 24 hour gym. Informative message ends.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline Auntie LIn

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Re: Small Public House
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2010, 08:21:15 PM »
Colin makes a very good point about liability.   I happened to mention to my broker that I had given some 'goodwill' advice to someone and was told in no uncertain terms that I was as liable for that as I was for any advice I might charge for.

Offline Meerkat

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Re: Small Public House
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2010, 09:29:33 AM »
Colin makes a very good point about liability.   I happened to mention to my broker that I had given some 'goodwill' advice to someone and was told in no uncertain terms that I was as liable for that as I was for any advice I might charge for.

Totally true if you do so face to face but I would suggest not such a simple case if you are simply replying anonymously to an anonymous request on an internet forum.  We are discussing this issue further in the Meeting Room area of the forum.
There's nothing simple about a Meerkat...

Offline Auntie LIn

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Re: Small Public House
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2010, 05:23:46 PM »
Maybe not Meerkat, but if you put a question on the forum, and I reply to it (perhaps giving you very duff advice which you don't recognise as such) and you pass the advice on and everything goes pear-shaped, I guess that your PI would take a bashing and your insurers would then be hassling mine to share the pain.

Offline Meerkat

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Re: Small Public House
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2010, 11:12:21 PM »
I seriously doubt it for all the reasons I have set out in the thread in the Meeting Room.
There's nothing simple about a Meerkat...

Offline David Rooney

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Re: Small Public House
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2010, 11:41:18 PM »
Maybe not Meerkat, but if you put a question on the forum, and I reply to it (perhaps giving you very duff advice which you don't recognise as such) and you pass the advice on and everything goes pear-shaped, I guess that your PI would take a bashing and your insurers would then be hassling mine to share the pain.

So if I pose a question on this forum "do i need an intumescent strip on my fire door in my office?" and you reply "no".

Three years later when it gets to court after my office has burnt down and I've tried to blame you for the "duff" advice I think the judge might ask me ....

      "... so you asked the question on an annonymous website and took the advice of an "Aunty Lin" not to fit an intumescent strip?
       You didn't consider contacting your local fire authority, building control officer or even i dare say a professional "consultant"?
       Your obviously an idiot Mr R. Go to prison for a long time just for being so stupid....... case closed!"

 :)
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