Wholetime retained - risk assessment

[Jon M]

Hi to everyone, nice to be back

Wholetime firefighters in my Service have now taken up retained duties.

in terms of rest periods between finishing the 2 days and registering for retained duty at night likewise being on retained duties prior to go onto nights, night shift and between nights and after last night shift

how much time should be allowed between shifts before they commence retained duties

has anyone undertaken a risk assessment

Regards to all

Jon

[fireftrm]

And if they have did they include the time that persons should be free to rest before commencing retained duties IRRESPECTIVE of their main employment?

[callansdad]

Hi

I am running retained in my rota days.

I have to have eleven hours before and after each shift (working time directive) which doesnt leave much time to actually run retained.

I cant go on the run between second day and first night cos you cant using the eleven hour rule.

But its ok for any of my colleagues to get knackered doing joinery or plumbing because the brigade dont know about it

GO FIGURE?

[Chris Houston]

As someone not in the service, I find it quite worrying that your colleuges are turning up for work "knackered".

There ought to be a system of ensuring employees of our emergency services are not in this condition.  Imagine how much money they must be making if they are busy plumbers!

There was a debate in the House of Commons yesterday about health service reforms and they were arguing that junior doctors were asking to be exempt from the working time directives so they could improve patient care!

[dave bev]

chris - another item in the 'modernisation' agenda that really doesnt bear scrutiny - the mp's at the 'top' really must wonder what the hell is going on and why they were told that all these great plans would actually improve the service dramatically. sure there has been and there always will be improvements - thats the very nature of the beast, and the analagies of eating elephants a bit at a time and battleships being manoevered and turned slowly are really laughable when taken too seriously.

nice piece in the papers also today re ambulance attendance times not being met - of course the ministers were told the fire service doesnt need attendance times, and we know why that was!

at least the welsh assembly have seen through the shroud waved by some - though not all - chief fire officers, mind you they are also trying to get hard wired smoke alarms into every household - another plus for the welsh assembly.

and now we have more and more firefighters working additional shifts - watch out for the issues re them taking early retirement in the years to come - oh, theyve done that one aswell - bit crafty eh?

need i go on ...........

[buffalosid1]

.  Imagine how much money they must be making if they are busy plumbers!

 !

and how much money someone makes working EXTRA hours  is your business how???

is it the fatigue that bothers you or the money?

[Andy Cole]

the laughable thing is as a retainer I can (in theory) do a 12hr day at work and get a shout 15mins after I get home then be out till the early hours before going back to work the following morning! shouldn't it be down to the firefighter using his common sense and discretion about whether he is fit to carry out the duties of which may be called upon him and if he doesn't think so then let someone else ride the pump?

[dave bev]

andy, the problem is that if 'he' is out all night and is professional enough to say they cannot respond for duty, whole time appliances may be placed off the run. i accept in this that there is no difference in any type of appliance being unavailable, but there should be some capacity in any system to allow this to happen, i suspect the capacity in the retained system may be higher than that in a whole time system in these circumstances, though my confidence in such a system being sustainable indefinitley is less than i would like it to be.

dave bev

[Andy Cole]

When I say he (or she) should'nt ride the pump I am referring to it as a retainer baring in mind that when the systems go down you should therotically have enough turn out to more than man the appliance (ie. some will be left behind) if you have just finished a shift in your main employment (whether that be working in a shop or as a WT) and don't think you are capable of carrying out the nessercary then don't ride, let someone else, I am not suggesting that you go out all night as a retainer then not 'turn out' in your main employment therefore I don't think this should have a baring on whether a WT pump turns out or not
Does this make sense or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

I don't mean to be in any way disrespectful to any of our female collegues by refering to FF's as males it's just figure of speech, I have the greatest of respect for them

[dave bev]

last point first - i understand and in no way believe you intended to be offensive - i only wish it would come natural to everyone - including me!

second point last - i understand what youre saying and it amounts to the same thing - not working past or even up to a position where fatigue could set in. it doesnt matter whether the work due is retained, wholetime or non fire service.

the point i was trying to make (obviously badly) is that if an individual is missing from their employment it isnt fair on the employer if it could have been managed in such a way that this was an exceptional occurence and not 'reasonably forseeable' - in the case of wholetime an appliance could go off the run, in other industry/commerce etc - the consequences could be just as important to the employer

dave bev

[Andy Cole]

I understand your point and think I may have been making the same  point.
What I am trying to say (and probably not in a very clear way) is that every FF whether they be WT or RT should prioritise themselves and thier time (as far is reasonably practicable) so they don't have an adverse affect on thier main employment, it is after all these employers who make the whole retained system possible.
Tonight for example, I finished work at 6 then got a shout at about 6.45 on arriving at the station (2nd in) I learnt that it was a RTC persons trapped now from that I think it is reasonable for me to assume that I would not be out throughout the night, therefore it wouldn't have any effect on my employment in the morning, if it had been a Barn Fire for example I would have expected it to be protracted therefore may have opted not to ride,there were 5 other FF's who turned up and were left behind I could of given my place upto one of those. I realise that this isn't possible all the time say when crew levels are not sufficent or when for whatever reason you are detained for longer than you anticipate.
What I don't think is right (and I have come accross it) is when you get WT complaining about being out on an all nighter because they will be tired for work in the morning!

[Rich]

As a wholetime F/f and a retained F/f my brigade conditions me to the following:

12 hours free of call before a day shift - so off call at 9pm
and

5 hours free of call before a night shift - so off call at 1pm

I work at a busy w/t station and a fairly busy retained station and in the last few years there are only a couple of occasions where I have gone into w/t work feeling exceptionally tired.  It is usually the other way round when coming off nights and being knackered in which case I have booked free of call for a few hours.

As a retained crew we only generally stay out  for 4 hours before getting a relief crew and how many jobs take 4 hours if we are honest not that many.

As mentioned in a previous post it is normally the plumbers/painters/kitchen fitters that are usually yawning first!!

[Kaiser]

I have read these comments with some interest and I personally thing that it is irrelevant whether you believe it to be fair or not that others who don't work for the FRS abide by different rules to you.  If you work wholetime for the fire service and then work as a retained firefighter, they are obviously aware of it.  
As your main and secondary employer, they are legally obliged to abide by the working time directives, they can't pretend that you haven't been at work because they know that you have.
With regards to other retained firefighters coming straight on the run from work, I'm sure that they are all informed of their own obligations under the working time directives.

[Firewolf]

I'm a retained firefighter for one brigade and a full time inspecting officer for another.

I have had to opt out of the working time directive and therefore the minimum rest period between undertaking both duties doesn't apply to me.

I accept firefighters have a saftey critial job to do... and many of you are horrified that they are undertaking secondary duties and turning up to work knackered.

But there are other risks we take in every day life which may become compounded by being tired. Driving for example, and this issue doesn't just apply to firefighters but anyone who undertakes secondary employment for any of the emergency services, or any other job which may mean people are called out during their rest periods.

If all retained firefighters followed the working time directive to the letter Im afraid to say that there wouldn't be a retained fire service!

[tazman]

HI.
 I work the RDS at my station and make it my own responsablity to manage, from working at my full time job and the cover I give,as do all of us.
If I get home from work knaackered and that this will afect my safety to ride the pump I ( book off ) as do the full time retained at the station if they have had a busy day / night.
It's up to you to manage your own health and safety at work and the safety of others.