London Fire Brigade Strikes

[Mike Buckley]

"True, but it was the previous Labour government who sought revenge and wanted Brigades to be run as corporate machines."

Yes, but it the senior civil servants who pull the strings and have a large say in the appointment of CFOs, and the civil servants are around a lot longer than the party in government.

[mr angry]

Most of the posts on this make reference to public opinion, let us look back to the public opinion during the invasion of Iraq in the quest for weapons of mass destruction. Did the New Labour leeches give a stuff what the public thought?

It matters not a jot, and yes the public do indeed fund our meagre public sector salaries but what they think makes no difference.

For all those who are a wee bit cloudy as to the workings of a trade union movement, the FBU are actually the members all of whom have a democratic vote and not officials with "axes to grind" as someone stated.

This dispute (in my opinion) is the result of some trough hogger looking to sell off the provision of fire cover in London to Asset Co of whom he has close (financial) links with which would follow throughout the rest of the country.

[Tom W]

Yes Mr Angry but its my taxes that are going to pay for your proposed increase wage.

There are a lot of job losses happening, people are scared for their jobs.

LFB want £50k a year plus the income from the second jobs, do they not?

Thats fine, good for them, but I want good cover and good value for money. I know people that would do their job for £25k a year.

So all of a sudden instead of one greedy fire fighter who want the hours he/she choses, I get TWO fire fighters who will do the hours I the employer chose. You get given your hours you do not chose them. So I now have double the cover for the same price and these new ones will do the hours I chose.

As I pay my taxes that makes me the employer.

[Golden]

"LFB want £50k a year plus the income from the second jobs, do they not?"

Where on earth did you get that from?

As far as I know there is no pay claim in this dispute.

[Tom W]

Firefighters have to work only 142 shifts a year, made up of 71 night shifts and 71 day shifts, allowing them plenty of time to hold down second jobs. Yet, even with these limited hours, their pay is well above the public sector average.
Nationwide, the basic salary for a trained firefighter is £28,200 (excluding overtime), rising to £33,200 in London, significantly above the average earnings in the capital for police officers and nurses.
 With overtime, that figure will be increased to anything between £40,000 and £50,000. Moreover, a watch manager in charge of up to 12 firefighters is paid around £40,000 a year before overtime.

It has already been explained in previous posts.

It boils down to if you don't want to do the shifts proposed for the money proposed, don't, there are lots of people who will.

[mr angry]

Ok Piglet, can you direct me to evidence of any requests for this wage increase that your taxes (and mine)are being used to provide as I am unaware of this new development.

You mention lots of job loses. Does this mean that everyone who is in employment should roll over and be treated like doormats accepting any changes to their contractual agreements on a whim without so much as a whimper?

You say LFB want £50k year.....absolute fiction. There is no dispute over pay here.

Ahhh...the old "second job" rhetoric. How many LFB firefighters have secondary jobs? Do you know?Firefighters work 48 hrs over an eight day period which is more than most and they, just like everyone else are entitled to work as many jobs as they so wish without it being anyone elses concern. I dont hear the public outcry at all the other people with second or third jobs ermm, like local councilors or MPs, nurses, doctors etc to name but a few.

You may well know people that say they will do their job for 25k (saving the taxpayer 3k) a year but the question is, are they suitable? A qualified firefighter with say 10 years sevice gets 28K a year, nearly 10k short of that of a police officer with the same service.

You are right piglet when you say we do not chose our working hours, we sign a contractual agreement which sets them out.

As I also pay my taxes am I also the employer?

[mr angry]

Firefighters have to work only 142 shifts a year, made up of 71 night shifts and 71 day shifts, allowing them plenty of time to hold down second jobs. Yet, even with these limited hours, their pay is well above the public sector average.
Nationwide, the basic salary for a trained firefighter is £28,200 (excluding overtime), rising to £33,200 in London, significantly above the average earnings in the capital for police officers and nurses.
 With overtime, that figure will be increased to anything between £40,000 and £50,000. Moreover, a watch manager in charge of up to 12 firefighters is paid around £40,000 a year before overtime.

It has already been explained in previous posts.

It boils down to if you don't want to do the shifts proposed for the money proposed, don't, there are lots of people who will.

You may want to have a wee google to update your "facts" on police, fire service and nurses pay.....

[nearlythere]

For all those who are a wee bit cloudy as to the workings of a trade union movement, the FBU are actually the members all of whom have a democratic vote and not officials with "axes to grind" as someone stated.

That's the theory Mr Angry but in practice the FBU is actually the officialdom taking advantage of an outdated mandate from the late 70s, (I was on the street then also).

The working of this trade union has nothing to do with improving or maintaining the firefighters lot but of using this campaign and others in the past to have a bash at the management for their own ends.

[mr angry]

I am more inclined to think that it is the other side who have instigated this by the instigation their bullying tactics to meet their own ends.

[Midland Retty]

This whole dispute has been grossly misreported, and some facts and figures quoted totally innacurate .

The dispute isn't about an increase in pay.

Police officers get paid more that firefighters (it is the case throughout the country)

As far as Im aware London Fire Crews are prepared to accept changes in shift patterns, it is however the way in which LFB has gone about enforcing those changes which has caused anger and ultimately  industrial action.

LFB have decided to make changes without consultation and if crews dont sign up to a new contract they will be sacked.

"So what?" I hear you cry.

The dispute is actually about the facility employers have at their to disposal to change employee contracts as they see fit within 90 days.

So the argument is that today this 90 day facility will be used to enforce shift changes ...  what will it be used for tomorrow? Will it give London and other fire brigades carte blanche to impose any archaic working practices they like? That is one of the concerns the FBU and its members have.

The other concern is the use of private contractors and private fire services providing front line public services. One private fire cover specialist in particular seems to be growing very quickly, and has a lot of fingers in a lot of pies not just with the fire service, but police and ambulance services too.

The timing of the industrial action is farcical - any form of action with regard to this matter is simply futile and it is plain for all to see.

The whole lot is a putrid mess, and I blame the FBU, as well as the prinicipal officers at LFB who have been equally provocative at times, for that mess.

[jokar]

Nice to see a principal officer on the picket line though and I wonder how the firefighter with a fractured pelvis is thanks to the Station Manager who drove into him.

[Steven N]

Boris Johnson is the mayor of London & writes a weekly column in the telegraph, thats his prerogative what he does in his time away from being mayor, and i often hear the argument that mp's should be allowed directorships, consultancies, continue practising as lawyers, dentists etc. what they do when not at the commons is there business. Friends of mine who are not connected to the fire service work as doorman on weekends when not at work for there employer, or play sport at a level that lets them be paid for their exertions on a saturday afternoon.
i think the common thread here is that after you have done your weeks work for whoever is your employer you can do what you like in your down time, & i think 42 hours a week is a fair few hours to put in. (granted some of the posters on here put in many mores hours than that for themselves & thats up to them.)The last time i looked it was still a free country with free choices.

[jokar]

An error from me, it is reported now that the firefigheter has only severe internal  bruising.

[kurnal]

Not your fault Jokar I read in the express that he had a fractured pelvis. More sensationalist reporting.

[Clevelandfire 3]

The other concern is the use of private contractors and private fire services providing front line public services. One private fire cover specialist in particular seems to be growing very quickly, and has a lot of fingers in a lot of pies not just with the fire service, but police and ambulance services too.

You mean Assetco presumably. By the looks of their website I wouldnt be suprised if they were running our fire service police and ambulance service in the UK before too long. They seem to be sneaking in to key elements of all three services. who knows what else they will try and specialise in. All smacks of privatisation somewhere down the line. Robocop? Or am i being cynical.