Manual Call points in flats

[lyledunn]

I have a number of existing HMOs in which fire alarm systems are to be altered. I am to oversee the operation. The premises are all 2 or 3-storey with no more than 4 self-contained flats. All are in compliance with modern building regulations relating to compartmentation. The required minimum system stated by the Licensing Authority is L3 to common areas and P6 Grade D LD3 within the flats. Most of the flat units have an external fire escape accessed through a back door in the flat. Siting a manual call point connected to the L3 system at this door is proving to be a very difficult task. The contractor (who is a good and careful one) was awarded the work on a design and build basis directly from the landlord. The question that he has asked me is, I think a fair one; does the secondary exit from the flat to external fire escape really need to be equipped with a MCP? My view is that it is preferable but not essential to meet the L3 criteria. I would be very interested in getting the view of a you stalwarts of fire safety on this one. (The FRA was done by a young fella who also serviced the fire extinguishers. I wasnt impressed with his understanding of the nature of fire alarm systems so I dont think that it is worth inviting his spin).
Many thanks

[kurnal]

Sorry Lyle but I think your comment about the person who undertook the FRA says it all.

There is insufficent data on which to make any helpful comment, because  much of the detail provided does not stack up and appears to be contradictory  eg  the compartmentation, the  requirements for licensing, the mix of part 1 and part 6 in the individual flats with call points within the flats?

Certainly it is possible to agree variations to BS5839 but first the fire strategy for the building must be clearly identified and agreed with the relevant parties.

A competent fire risk assessment would be the starting point and may just save a number of expensive mistakes from being made. And will help the local authority in deciding whether a licence is needed or not.

[nearlythere]

Seems to be another case of a cheap fire risk assessment having the potential to be quite expensive.
And he thought he was saving money.

I wonder if it's the same consultant I now hear much about.
This person left the F&R Service with no FS experience and suddenly became an overnight consultant.  An extinguisher company referred its clients to him for Assessments, because it didn't know his real background, and he used an online template.
He then decided to miss out the middle people, bought a van, copied a lot of the extinguisher companies presentations and advertising material and took to selling extinguishers, and got someone to clone the online assessment software.

The last I heard he was being sued.

[Wiz]

Prof K and you other FRA experts, I have a little question based on the original question of this thread;

If the external fire escape door is from the flats, which only have a Part 6 D LD3 system, and assuming these fire escape doors are provided for escape from the flats only, is it generally a FRA requirement that a mcp, connected to the Part 1 L3 system installed in the common areas, is installed by the escape door?

It seems to me that only if this escape door is part of an escape route available to everybody in the building, might it require such, and if so, then automatic detectors as part of the L3 system would also need to be installed in the flat to cover the escape route.

[kurnal]

Wiz I think I agree with you but the whole set up is confusing. 

Generally there is no requirement for a fire alarm in the common areas of flats in which there is full compartmentation and other features that characterize a building as flats as opposed to an HMO. We would need to know why this building was being treated as an HMO and to know more about the escape routes. Would there be a need to raise a general alarm in the common areas and the other flats in case of a fire in an individual flat? Are the external routes and the access to them shared? Why are we specifying a part 6 system in a flat if there is a need for a shared part 1 system throughout the building? How far are we going with the L3  system? Detection in escape routes and rooms off?   Too many imponderables in this case.

[lyledunn]

Kurnal,
Thank you for your reply. These are really bog standard HMOs. Wiz effectively summarized my query but perhaps I am not quite seeing things the way an experienced fire officer might. To be clear, the requirements for the alarm system are derived from the Licensing Authority. I have a notion that Nearly there might not be far from the mark in that I might as well go howl at the moon than glean any substance from the FRA!
I am really interested in yourviews on this subject so if it helps, I have attempted to answer your questions;
Would there be a need to raise a general alarm in the common areas and the other flats in case of a fire in an individual flat?
Yes but only to provide the L3 cover for the common escape route.
Are the external routes and the access to them shared?
Access to them is via each individual flat, thereafter they are shared.
Why are we specifying a part 6 system in a flat if there is a need for a shared part 1 system throughout the building?
This is standard practice in HMOs of this nature and specified to reduce false alarms.
How far are we going with the L3  system? Detection in escape routes and rooms off? 
ASDs in the escape route and HDs behind the door of each flat.
Regards,
Lyle Dunn

[kurnal]

To be clear, the requirements for the alarm system are derived from the Licensing Authority.

I have a notion that Nearly there might not be far from the mark in that I might as well go howl at the moon than glean any substance from the FRA!

To my mind the fire risk assessment should be the driving force in determining the appropriate  alarm system in the common areas. Not the licensing authority. Thats the main  problem as I see it.

Is it a HMO? Or is it purpose built flats? I ask this because of the comment you made re compartmentation.

If an L3 was the correct and appropriate provision in the common areas, and if due to a lack of compartmentation and fire separation between the individual dwellings it was necessary to tip everybody out in the event of any fire anywhere then it may be necessary to extend the part 1
fire alarm system fully into each  dwelling, forget the Part 6 system and provide a break glass at each final exit. If a part 6 system is appropriate to each dwelling then it does not appear appropriate to provide an MCP in dwellings.

But I still think the owner is allowing the licensing authority to call the shots whereas if he was a little more proactive a logical and sensible solution is more likely to be found. I still think the owner is making a mistake in blindly following the licensing authority's lead.

[nearlythere]

I agree to a degree K but the licencing authority, like many licencing and registration authorities in NI, do not have the experience and competancy to understand a logical and rational approach to fire safety.

There is an "if it ain't in the book it ain't right" attitude in places.

Not sure about mainland but there is specific guidance issued by the Housing Executive on HMOs here which includes the level of manual & detection systems.

[kurnal]

Indeed NT. Yes in England the Housing Act 2004  provides for licensing schemes of HMOs by Local Authorities many of whom get by on the old bluff and persuastion rules. There is a definition of a HMO  in section 254 and this is best explained in the LACORS guidance which can be downloaded here:

http://www.lacors.gov.uk/lacors/upload/19175.pdf

 4 tests are described to determine on a rule of thumb whether a property is an HMO- more than one household, some sharing of basic  amenites, a building divided into self contaiend flats but not to Building Regs standards and more than 1/3 flats are rented or a declaration has been made by the local Housing Authority.

The guidance then gives a range of solutions to common problems/ different scenarios  and appropriate guidance on the standards of fire alarms to be installed. Generally  the guidance recommends part 6 systems throughout, the grade of system related to the size of building.