Author Topic: Private Sector Enforcement of Technical Fire Safety  (Read 42421 times)

Offline SamFIRT

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Re: Private Sector Enforcement of Technical Fire Safety
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2010, 04:04:35 PM »
...........And what will happen if the Forensic Science service closes and Private companies take up all investigations. Private investigators; even the very best ( and I have worked with the best) have their clients to serve. ......can they be impartial?

 :-\
Sam

Offline jokar

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Re: Private Sector Enforcement of Technical Fire Safety
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2010, 04:54:23 PM »
It is not really about funding it, it is about saving money.  If a company chooses to outsource some of its workload to another compnay there is only normally one reason for that and that is a financial saving.  If you farm out on a contract basis some of the workload, in this case fire safety enforcement to another company, they pick up the staffing costs for that activity.  Control would remain with the FRS through on a contract basis an staff would be required to run that part of the business but not necesaarily uniformed staff.  The cost savings if any are there for smaller FRS will be in not paying for a whole time enforcement team.

Offline kurnal

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Re: Private Sector Enforcement of Technical Fire Safety
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2010, 05:37:39 PM »
If Dinnertime Dave's comments are typical of the smaller brigade then it would appear that they arent paying for a wholetime enforcement team in any case.
I would take some convincing that there is money to be saved by contracting out services. Unless the level of service provision is to take a nose dive. And its already too low in many areas.

Many brigades are already building up problems for the future by civilianising their enforcement teams solely  through the re-employment of former uniformed officers.   There needs to be a proper career structure  to equip new people and train them to carry out the role. The whole Industry - private and public sectors are based on a group of old timers who have retired early with a fire service pension. Very few are putting any resources into the training and development of young blood. There are a  very few exceptions- for example the  ABBE seem to be working in the right direction in producing NVQs for fire risk assessors.

The private sector and fire brigades will both suffer from a the resulting lack of skilled employees. Fire Safety is an important skill for Fire Brigades to retain and nurture for all sorts of reasons. .

Offline AnthonyB

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Re: Private Sector Enforcement of Technical Fire Safety
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2010, 06:05:53 PM »
Even the US, land of commerce and private enterprise, retains fire code enforcement firmly in the public sector with it's fire marshals at city and state level.

To privatise enforcement it would be difficult (but not impossible) without de-criminalising it (like with parking enforcement) which is not a good idea.

Also how could it pay - Civilian FSO wages are pitiful already in some brigades, if you lowered it to allow a profit in the private sector you will pay peanuts, thus expecting monkeys. Fire certification type fees would have to return and the enforcement firm allowed to retain a percentage of fines. An introduction of a fixed penalty system to reduce the legal process (& costs) would surely follow.

To privatise and not go down that path you will just end up doing what happens with the other privatisation of former state functions - it costs more, just from a different Govt. departments budget.
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Offline wee brian

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Re: Private Sector Enforcement of Technical Fire Safety
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2010, 12:58:57 PM »
Privatising enforcement isn't really viable.

In building regs you do have AI's but even then the enforcement role stays with the Local Authority. Given that the FSO deosn't include any kind of approval process then you cant privatise it.

The bit you can privatise is the giving of advice - in case you havent noticed, that's already happened.

What we do need is to ensure that competent commercial advice is available. Thats where some sort of registration comes in. Can the industry deliver?

Offline Fishy

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Re: Private Sector Enforcement of Technical Fire Safety
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2010, 01:13:35 PM »
The first part of the fire safety ‘lifecycle’ for any premises is when it is being constructed or altered; in respect of fire safety this work is controlled under the relevant Building Regulations, which can already be enforced by the private sector (Approved Inspectors).  My initial thoughts were therefore “why should the enforcement of the legislation that deals with the occupied premises be any different”?

I think it is different, though, because the nature of the legislation is that it relies upon the enforcers operating targeted, risk-based inspection of all ‘at risk’ premises.  I would suggest that there could only ever be a single entity within any geographical area that could be accountable for developing & maintaining such an inspection regime (discounting for the moment ‘special’ premises such as nuclear power stations etc).  It would be hard to see how this could be anyone else than the relevant fire authority (FA).

Nothing to stop the FA from employing civvies to do this work, or even to stop them outsourcing it to a private company, but they would need to retain the ultimate accountability for whether it’s done right or not.  In the case of outsourcing if they draw up the contracts right, procure competently & enforce the contracts rigidly, I can’t see why (in concept) this wouldn’t work.  The private companies might also be able to do it cheaper not because private sector employees are necessarily paid less, but the private sector’s overheads (pensions etc) are often much cheaper, which means they might be able to pay their staff more & still turn a profit.

Note that I said "if they draw up the contracts right, procure competently & enforce the contracts rigidly, I can’t see why (in concept) this wouldn’t work..." I would observe that the ability of the public sector to achieve all three of these might not be entirely reliable!

Offline Dinnertime Dave

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Re: Private Sector Enforcement of Technical Fire Safety
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2010, 03:03:01 PM »
The first part of the fire safety ‘lifecycle’ for any premises is when it is being constructed or altered; in respect of fire safety this work is controlled under the relevant Building Regulations, which can already be enforced by the private sector (Approved Inspectors).  My initial thoughts were therefore “why should the enforcement of the legislation that deals with the occupied premises be any different”?


Forgive me but my understanding is that AI`s administer building regulations - only the local authority enforce. If I am totally honest I find that AI on the whole are quite good having to prove competence regularly. My experience some local authority BCO`s rely on making no comments and and using a free consultation from the fire authority.

However, I have heard stories of an AI asking a builder to send a photo of the footings to save a journey, when the builder pointed out that he could send a photo of any footings the AI said "that would be up to you". 

Although before I get totally slaughtered for my comments there are good and bad in all industries, we only have to look at some of the stories told on here of the fire safety officers who ask for inappropriate items.   



Offline CivvyFSO

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Re: Private Sector Enforcement of Technical Fire Safety
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2010, 03:13:39 PM »
Theoretically:

I will start up a body called the FSE. (Fire Safety Executive of course)
I will nick a load of inspectors, competent assessors etc from around the country. (Just enough for a reactive inspection regime, and consultations)
Gov't should then change the subordinate provison on the RRFSO, changing the enforcing authority to my newly formed FSE.
The government can take money away from all FRS' that they would have earmarked for fire safety enforcement and give 50% of it to me and give the rest back to the taxpayer.
I will give my inspectors a wage, and ensure they are trained properly.
I will give myself a nice wage for all my trouble.
I bet I would still have some change left to spend on Colin Todds book after saving the taxpayer all that money.

Any issues there?

Offline Davo

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Re: Private Sector Enforcement of Technical Fire Safety
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2010, 03:24:19 PM »
Civvy

You should buy all of your Inspectors a copy, I'm told there are a few left in the warehouse ::)

(Soz CT, couldn't resist)


davo

Offline CivvyFSO

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Re: Private Sector Enforcement of Technical Fire Safety
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2010, 03:27:51 PM »
Civvy
You should buy all of your Inspectors a copy, I'm told there are a few left in the warehouse ::)

 :-X

Offline wee brian

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Re: Private Sector Enforcement of Technical Fire Safety
« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2010, 03:32:17 PM »
Good idea, I might be looking for a job soon!

Offline Davo

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Re: Private Sector Enforcement of Technical Fire Safety
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2010, 03:35:14 PM »
wee b

me too, got my 'at risk' notice just before Xmas, nice eh >:(


davo

Offline Dinnertime Dave

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Re: Private Sector Enforcement of Technical Fire Safety
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2010, 03:37:01 PM »
Civvy
You should buy all of your Inspectors a copy, I'm told there are a few left in the warehouse ::)

 :-X

Sorry i did try to obtain a copy of a CT book (it was on a university reading list) and it was out of print.  :o

Offline Studius

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Re: Private Sector Enforcement of Technical Fire Safety
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2010, 05:25:10 PM »
The rising fire losses would suggest at the moment UK FRS's are not getting it right, Ok the number a fatalities in domestics has steadily declined. But once again the "Dark Art" seems to be within someones sights. FP does work , but as most of us realise you can never prove that the measures requested by an fso saved life or two.
The idea I thought was to prevent, so to adopt a HSE type of approach of kicking people when they are down seems to fly in the face of Fire Rescue ethos. Obviously there are the beligerant types when enforcement is necessary but surely (not Shirley) this should ideally be carried out before .
Insurers are pretty much a sleeping partner in this enforcement role (full circle coming), but they can help FRS's obtain more than just life protection,informally of course.
But I can not see why a contactor / consultant would get out of bed for less than they already charge for their specialist skills.Whereas the FPO works for a national wage and I am pretty sure that would be less than the private sector.
NOFSO's do give many brigades value for money in a dedicated role, not having to balance the multitudes of other management tasks and of course fire calls. I feel the "Service" nationally needs to recognise that it is a vital role which is carried out impartially.
How about best value, not necessarily the cheapest option!?

Offline Tom Sutton

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Re: Private Sector Enforcement of Technical Fire Safety
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2010, 08:48:58 PM »

Whereas the FPO works for a national wage and I am pretty sure that would be less than the private sector.

If the FPO is working on grey book conditions then I would expect you are wrong. If the FPO is a civilian working on green book conditions then that is another matter.

I think it always ends up about money.
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.