Author Topic: Offences and Defences- the defence of Due Diligence.  (Read 45015 times)

Offline kurnal

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Re: Offences and Defences- the defence of Due Diligence.
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2011, 05:07:16 PM »
Thanks to all. So my original question still stands but in reverse.

What was the thinking behind article 33 in setting out a defence of due diligence that can only be used if the persons placed at risk are not your employees? I note your comments Speyside and Civvy and I am probaly not seeing the wood for the trees.The EU directives are all about employment and the options available to member states also refer to employers. But an RP who is not an employer,  enjoys an additional defence of Due Diligence. Why was this thought to be necessary?

Civvy I always listen to Colin. At extraordinary great length sometimes ;)
But I think he sometimes expects us all in the business  to have the instant recall for technical detail and history that he does. And personally I admit I dont.

Thats why I have been grubbing about in a filthy basement today looking at compartmentation and finding huge problems whilst he has been drinking tea from a china cup in the company of learned judges, politicians, civil servants  et al.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2011, 07:06:02 PM by kurnal »

Offline Mike Buckley

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Re: Offences and Defences- the defence of Due Diligence.
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2011, 10:06:37 PM »
"But an RP who is not an employer,  enjoys an additional defence of Due Diligence".

Perhaps this comes from the definition of a Responsible Person from the order. Yes the employer is a responsible person, but the person having control of the premises and the owner of the premises are also considered to be Responsible Persons.

So if we look at the old chestnut of multi occupied premises, the owner of the premises is considered to be a responsible person, as are the employers of the workforces in units within the premises. If the employer in charge of one of the units commits an offense, they can be prosecuted but the owner of the entire premises can also be prosecuted for the same offense as another responsible person. As I see it, in this case the owner of the premises as a responsible person should be able to use the defence of due diligence.
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Offline AnthonyB

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Re: Offences and Defences- the defence of Due Diligence.
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2011, 11:51:45 PM »
That's how it sometimes used to work with fire certificates - the owner held that main certificate and the tenants sub-certificates.

Sometimes the owner would get a notice as well as the tenant even if the problem was in the tenants part of the certified premises and the owner would have to use the due diligence defence.

There was a big case in the late 90's on this principle at a shopping centre where several severe breaches were found in the shop units, EN's and prosecuted. The landlord via their agent as main certificate holder got stuck on for all these offences as well, despite them being inside tenanted areas. They tried a due diligence based appeal stating they only had control over common parts & had fire consultants regularly audit the site, but lost because the auditors did not go inside the shops.

As a result we started doing 'due diligence' inspections for fire certificate compliance which covered all parts of a multi-occ, not just common parts. Things were different in those days, really old fire alarm systems and minimal EL were the norm (& accepted) and the most common breach was failure to notify alterations to building layout that could affect MoE and get approval/updated plans, hand in hand with failure to hold a complete copy of the certificate on site (which made auditing it interesting!)
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Offline colin todd

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Re: Offences and Defences- the defence of Due Diligence.
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2011, 12:41:54 AM »
On a point of accuracy Kurnal, while you were grovelling in a basement, I was doing inspecting officer training at the REAL Fire Services College in God's own country, amongst God's chosen people, whom he has blessed with a beautiful country and the most decent genuine people in the World, though so as not to show too much favouritism to his chosen ones, he landed them with lousy neighbours and the Rt Horrible Tony Blair and the odd character of Gordon Brown.

On your question, I keep telling you it is incredibly simple and I do not know how to make it simpler. A fundamental tenet of the EU Directives is that an empoyer is UNCONDITIONALLY responsible for the safety of his empoyees, so due diligence as a defence would not wash. The EU do not even think the UK should have so far as is reasonably practicable but the UK were bullish about that , even though the EU thought it was a qualification that conflicts with the strict liability of an employer.

This responsibility cannot be delegated away, transferred to a fire risk assessor regardless of whether he is registered, circumcised, baptised, glorified or cannonized. nor can it be sold on ebay, given away as a present, or put up for auction. It stays with the employer. Whether an EA chooses to prosecute the employer of course is up to them. They may decide to prosecute an Article 5(3) person instead or to prosecute the RP AND an Article 5(3) person. It probably depends which one got up the nose if the I/o in England, or, in Scotland, whom a properly qualified and very bright lawyer at the PF thinks it is appropriate to prosecute, taking public policy into account and not wishing , as has happened in the case of a large met F&RS in England, the cost of defending frivolous charges that are then dropped, being paid for by public funds (ie you and me).
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 12:44:50 AM by colin todd »
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Offline kurnal

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Re: Offences and Defences- the defence of Due Diligence.
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2011, 07:12:42 AM »
"....Whether an EA chooses to prosecute the employer of course is up to them. They may decide to prosecute an Article 5(3) person instead........ "

Thanks Colin. That puts it in perspective.

In such a case,  the defence of due diligence could  be exercised by the Article 5(3) person against whom action is being taken, even in the absence of a prosecution of the Employer. If employees were put at risk the Employer WOULD have had vicarious liability but there may be cases where there is insufficient evidence to support a prosecution of the employer, only the 5(3) person.

Offline Tom Sutton

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Re: Offences and Defences- the defence of Due Diligence.
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2011, 09:38:43 AM »
On a point of accuracy Kurnal, while you were grovelling in a basement, I was doing inspecting officer training at the REAL Fire Services College in God's own country, amongst God's chosen people, whom he has blessed with a beautiful country and the most decent genuine people in the World, though so as not to show too much favouritism to his chosen ones, he landed them with lousy neighbours and the Rt Horrible Tony Blair and the odd character of Gordon Brown.

I think if I loved a place so much I would be living there.  :)
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 09:41:12 AM by Tom Sutton »
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

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Re: Offences and Defences- the defence of Due Diligence.
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2011, 10:11:00 AM »
This article sheds some light on the whole issue of due diligence and the RRO

http://www.means-of-escape.com/press-releases/press57.aspx

Repatriation for Todd ………. top idea; voluntary or enforced just as good.

Where can I donate to the ‘send Todd to the outer Hebrides’ fund?

Midland Retty

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Re: Offences and Defences- the defence of Due Diligence.
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2011, 12:32:16 PM »
I won't have my bestest friend in the whole world ever, Colin Todd, spoken about like that. It would be a great loss to his local talisker parlour, and gentleman's special interest club, if he were ever to be repatriated to his motherland.

Colin is quite correct that due dilligence is not a defence for an employer, and that the EA could pursue either the RP or the 5(3) chappie or both.

But that then raises a question. Why would the enforcing authority decide not to prosecute the RP as he suggested, and instead pursue the 5(3) personage?

Either it would be because the EA had a weak case against the RP, or, the EA were of the opinion that it would be unreasonable to prosecute the RP.

If you were to apply the letter of the law exactly, the EA shouldn't consider the latter, because due dilligence is no defence full stop.

By just pursuing the 5(3) person is the EA giving the RP the right to exercise an element of defacto due dilligence? And therefore is this business about due dilligence not being a defence actually a bit of a red herring, at the whim of the EA?

« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 01:53:58 PM by Midland Fire »

Offline Tom Sutton

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Re: Offences and Defences- the defence of Due Diligence.
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2011, 02:46:12 PM »

What was the thinking behind article 33 in setting out a defence of due diligence that can only be used if the persons placed at risk are not your employees? I note your comments Speyside and Civvy and I am probably not seeing the wood for the trees.The EU directives are all about employment and the options available to member states also refer to employers. But an RP who is not an employer,  enjoys an additional defence of Due Diligence. Why was this thought to be necessary?

The RR(FS)O was drafted with due consideration to the EEC directives and as they haven't petitioned the UK, then I would assume they have accepted the order unlike the workplace regs in 1998. When you prosecute anybody you use the RR(FS)O therefore the answer lies within that order and for me Art 33, 32(11), 8(1)(a)or 12 answers the question.
 
As for K,s above query  I think the EEC directives answer that, when Europe shouts s**t we jump on the shovel  unlike some of our European friends.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 03:08:33 PM by Tom Sutton »
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline Clevelandfire 3

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Re: Offences and Defences- the defence of Due Diligence.
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2011, 01:04:51 AM »
I won't have my bestest friend in the whole world ever, Colin Todd, spoken about like that. It would be a great loss to his local talisker parlour, and gentleman's special interest club, if he were ever to be repatriated to his motherland.

Colin is quite correct that due dilligence is not a defence for an employer, and that the EA could pursue either the RP or the 5(3) chappie or both.

But that then raises a question. Why would the enforcing authority decide not to prosecute the RP as he suggested, and instead pursue the 5(3) personage?

Either it would be because the EA had a weak case against the RP, or, the EA were of the opinion that it would be unreasonable to prosecute the RP.

If you were to apply the letter of the law exactly, the EA shouldn't consider the latter, because due dilligence is no defence full stop.

By just pursuing the 5(3) person is the EA giving the RP the right to exercise an element of defacto due dilligence? And therefore is this business about due dilligence not being a defence actually a bit of a red herring, at the whim of the EA?

Good point well made. Its horses for  courses though Im afraid!

Offline colin todd

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Re: Offences and Defences- the defence of Due Diligence.
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2011, 07:44:47 PM »
Thomas, It is well-known that Scots are all missionaries to the third world, so here I must stay for the benefit of the under-priveleged, though I tend to keep away from the fourth world, even though it did spawn the Beatles.
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Offline colin todd

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Re: Offences and Defences- the defence of Due Diligence.
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2011, 07:46:27 PM »
Comarade in arms, Retty, you are correct-it is at the whim of the enforcing authority.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline Tom Sutton

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Re: Offences and Defences- the defence of Due Diligence.
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2011, 08:55:20 PM »
Maybe so CT, but the only thing they did for me was to ruin one of my Mathew St boozers and I am also not a football fan. However I still like enough to still live there and not emigrate.

Anyway don't missionaries provide information/help for free somehow it doesn't sound like you.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 09:09:08 PM by Tom Sutton »
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline colin todd

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Re: Offences and Defences- the defence of Due Diligence.
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2011, 01:04:44 AM »
Sadly Thomas, I dont have a pension that allows me to be that altruistic, but then I am not old enough to collect one anyway.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline kurnal

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Re: Offences and Defences- the defence of Due Diligence.
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2011, 08:25:17 AM »
Many might argue that rather than bringing good news and enlightenment, history shows that missionaries are often sent by self serving organisations for their own self interest,  seeking to impose their own beliefs and standards on other nations and tribes which previously have been living their lives peacefully in happy self contained and fulfilled communities.

Of course I hasten to add I would not dream of linking such an analogy to any Scotsman who prefers to live in England for our continued enlightenment and delight! ;D
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 08:36:32 AM by kurnal »