Prosecution procedures.

[kurnal]

Under PACE and Fire Authority procedures  I am aware that defendant has to be cautioned as soon as the investigating officer has reason to believe an offence may have been committed.

However how far is it reasonable for an investigation into an alleged offence by an individual to  proceed including other potential witnesses being interviewed without informing the accused of the ongoing investigation? At what stage should the defendant be advised of the investigation ongoing? Is it right that they should be the last person to know? Or is there no guidance on this?

[Davo]

Prof

Surely he isn't a defendant until the FRS have identified from their investigation that he should become one 

davo

ps PACE guides were on the DCLG website last time I looked

[kurnal]

But if someone is  suspected of an offence is it right that they could be the last person to be aware of the investigation ongoing? It could be unforunate if i were to tell you in the pub that I had been interviewed as a witness over an offence you were alleged to have committed and you knew nothing about it?

If I commit a driving offence like speeding the Police have to serve me a notice of intended prosecution within 14 days of the alleged offence. Is the RRO different?

[Mr. P]

K, I believe this will be included on a course which CT runs! (Not the police or speeding - which I am sure he will also have an opinion on)

[CivvyFSO]

Kurnal

The NIP is a specific thing to the Road Traffic Offenders Act and is not something relating to PACE.

Another way to look at it is that once we THINK that an offence has been committed, we are then simply gathering evidence in order to make a better judgement. In this 'evidence gathering' stage why would we need to inform anyone? Do the police inform drug dealers that they are being investigated?

This is a bit of an extreme example and a completely different type of investigation. I personally believe that we should be up front and open about it all from the onset of suspicion. One of the first things we need is the risk assessment, and since we are probably taking copies of it I think that it should be made clear why we want a copy.

[Beast]

The serving of the code B notice as required under pace will inform the RP or their representative that evidence is being gathered as result of a suspicion that an offence has been committed.

[Midland Retty]

Yes agreed CivvyFSO

Once the commission of an offence is suspected evidence needs to be gathered to prove it,and actually it may well be that subsequent investigations exonerate the person originall suspected of committing the offence.

So there isn't any point putting some through the stress of being investigated when it may be unfounded, or turn out to be nothing.

A bit tenuous but be aware just as a point of order that it is a myth that the police have 14 days to nab you for speeding.

It all depends on the offence. If they are going to nab you with a fixed penalty fine and penalty points they have 14 days in which to do.

But if you speed well in excess of the speed limit which might result in a driving ban or prison sentence, they have up to 6 months to investigate the offence.

This links into what we are saying about the RR(FS)O - serious criminal offences are granted longer periods to be investigated. This is one of the main differences between summary and indictable offences.

Also bear in mind that there are a minority of people whom if they know they are being investigated, may try to conceal or tamper with evidence.

[CivvyFSO]

The serving of the code B notice as required under pace will inform the RP or their representative that evidence is being gathered as result of a suspicion that an offence has been committed.

We are not seizing someones property, why would we need a code B notice?

I am aware that many FRS's do this, and I think that it is us getting ideas above our 'station'. We are not 'searching' a premises for evidence, and we are not removing any actual property unless we take a sample of something for testing, in which case you could then be required to issue a code B notice.

[Beast]

We don't have to take anything. Just the act of making further enquiries requires it to be served.

[Dinnertime Dave]

We don't have to take anything. Just the act of making further enquiries requires it to be served.

Whilst I am happy to be corrected our B Notice quotes -

Our powers under Article 27, space for the address, person receiving the notice, business role, inspectors signature, inspectors name, time, date and items taken.

My training taught me that it is issued only if taking items away including taking photographs.

[Tom Sutton]

Check out http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/police/powers/pace-codes/  part B I guess originates from there.

[Clevelandfire 3]

B Notice? explain!!!!

[CivvyFSO]

Cleveland

Some FRS's issue a code B notice under PACE when gathering evidence. It is what the police have to issue before they search your house/vehicle and take anything of your own property away from you. (Or indeed stuff that is potentially not your property, stolen goods etc) It is my opinion that our powers revolve around taking copies and samples, not property, therefore we do not need to issue a Code B notice. Even when it comes to taking a sample of something to ascertain its flammability, it is not like they are going to get it back undamaged so they will not really have any claim to it.

There is a mention of taking copies in Code B and this cites the Criminal Justice and Police Act. Within part 2 of the CJPA it states that taking copies of things is the same as seizing them so far as the CJPA applies, but it lists various articles and sections of legislation where the powers conferred would come under part 2 of the CJPA, and the RRFSO is not on that list.

FWIW, I am not arguing this from the point of "I am right". I think that it is a good topic for discussion and want to take other people's opinions.

[Tom Sutton]

Check out http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2001/16/contents to follow the thread. Another one that may be relevant http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/25/contents.

[Dinnertime Dave]

Cleveland

Some FRS's issue a code B notice under PACE when gathering evidence.

I hope that all FRS issue them. It is my understanding that without it the court may have to make a judgment on the validity of the evidence.