Author Topic: Atherstone Update  (Read 40803 times)


Offline tmprojects

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Re: Atherstone Update
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2011, 07:49:21 PM »
I could not say if they're right to prosecute or not beacause i don't have all the facts.

But, can you imagine the repercutions of this throughout the fire service! particularly in the retained areas. for them its a part time vocation, who in that position would want the prospect of this hanging over them! i for one would have second thoughts about doing it.

And for the full time guys. I wouldn't be surprised if we never see another fireman committed into a fire again because every fire officer doing there Dynamic RA would surely now be adding this into the equation. And every single one would come out as 'wash it down the road'

I will say this though. it is the absence of information that will be the roots of everyone's concern. not knowing what it is they did wrong means you have no way of making sure you don't make the same mistake. At the earliest possible point the circumstances of the incident and the grounds for the prosecution should be made available. (unlikely till after any trial).

It could show they where seriously neglectfull of their duty. Or, it could show that they made a judgement call (the kind that most ops guys would consider)
that went against procedures. and are in the dock because they didn't follow procedures. Either way at least ops guys will know where they stand.

I heard one of the guys who is being prosecuted is also the father of one of the guys who died. if true, i couldn't imagine anything worse. the guilt would be the real sentence there.
 

Offline Clevelandfire 3

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Re: Atherstone Update
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2011, 12:49:06 AM »
It wil mean that the fire service wont commit into any building even if there is saveable life. And the HSE says it understands fire service operations. And the giovernment says it will take elf and safety away from emergency services. Our survey says nup nerrrrr.

Offline SamFIRT

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Re: Atherstone Update
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2011, 07:03:19 AM »
Quote
It wil mean that the fire service wont commit into any building even if there is saveable life. And the HSE says it understands fire service operations. And the giovernment says it will take elf and safety away from emergency services

Rubbish. !!!

Fire service staff will always do their job and save life. What complete and utter nonsense is being spoken about regarding this case!

What we need is the truth to come out ..................and the Court of the land is the place to do it. There are too many vested interests for it to happen otherwise.

I really cannot understand why Fire practitioners who regularly use Fire legislation based on H&S legislation are worried about the rule of law taking its course. Just like it does in an FSO prosecution?

Can someone please explain what you are all afraid of?  And please no more rubbish about British Justice being flawed. It is better …. Much better than very many other places in the world and the dead firefighters deserve justice!
Sam

Offline tmprojects

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Re: Atherstone Update
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2011, 11:01:06 PM »
Quote
It wil mean that the fire service wont commit into any building even if there is saveable life. And the HSE says it understands fire service operations. And the giovernment says it will take elf and safety away from emergency services

Rubbish. !!!

Fire service staff will always do their job and save life. What complete and utter nonsense is being spoken about regarding this case!

What we need is the truth to come out ..................and the Court of the land is the place to do it. There are too many vested interests for it to happen otherwise.
 justice!

I would sincerely hope your view 'samFIRT' is right and it doesn't prevent officers doing their job. and i would like to think that in the right circumstances i would make the right decision without fear of retribution. but you must appreciate the concerns! As you said, the truth needs to come out.  And i do have the faith and belief that it will in our justice system. but my point was.. in absence of that information people will fear their postion and will be afraid the consequences their decision may result in.

i am really interested in what you mean by peoples 'vested interests' preventing the truth from coming out. do you mind expanding on this? I hope you do.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 11:39:43 PM by tmprojects »

Offline Clevelandfire 3

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Re: Atherstone Update
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2011, 11:30:04 PM »
Dont get me wrong Samfrit I hope you are right

But I too would like to know what you mean by vested interests

Offline wee brian

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Re: Atherstone Update
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2011, 09:34:07 AM »
Is that where you have an interest in vests?  Doesnt sound very nice to me.

Anyway, we are all accountable for what we do and that should always be on your mind when making a decision. Especially where peoples lives are at risk.

A very duff fire risk assessment could result in a consultant finding himself in court for manslaughter - so what's the difference?

Offline Tom Sutton

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Re: Atherstone Update
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2011, 02:31:35 PM »

A very duff fire risk assessment could result in a consultant finding himself in court for manslaughter - so what's the difference?

As a risk assessor you have as much time as you require to make the decisions, as an Oic of an incident you don't. I don't think I have ever been to an incident were on reflection or in hind sight I would have not have dealt with it differently.The proverb "There but for the grace of god go I" springs to mind.
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline wee brian

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Re: Atherstone Update
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2011, 04:39:53 PM »
I expect the court will take that into account. The alternative is that an officer IC can be a wreckless as he likes with his crews lives with impunity. I doubt anybody would be up for that.

Offline Tom Sutton

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Re: Atherstone Update
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2011, 08:12:26 PM »
1. I expect the court will take that into account.
2. The alternative is that an officer IC can be a wreckless as he likes with his crews lives with impunity. I doubt anybody would be up for that.

1.I very much hope so.

2. I do not believe any Oic would consider her/himself to be reckless and put his crews lives in danger. However when you commit your crew you lose control of them as soon as they pass through the entry point and their safety depends on what has been done before the fire, training for example.
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline SamFIRT

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Re: Atherstone Update
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2011, 09:33:46 PM »
Quote
But I too would like to know what you mean by vested interests
Ok well here we go.
I don’t want anyone to get upset about this post because this is a discussion forum and not intended to be in any way insulting.
Vested interests; it all depends on what happened at the incident. And … we don’t know. That is why I say it should go to Court and the truth will out. Or if people commit perjury they will be themselves prosecuted.
But hypothetically speaking.
If the FRS has a poor training or knowledge gathering and exchange policy then they probably have a vested interest in keeping an Enquiry in house.
If the WM’s / SM are poorly trained, or disobeyed SOP’s or are in any way culpable they probably have a vested interest in there being no enquiry at all.
If the local stations are possibly due to close then the local population/ Union / Workforce probably has a vested interest in showing the current system works well.
If some of the fire fighters are retained and have worked, or worked at the time of the incident, for the company that was alight, then there is probably a vested interest in hushing that up.
If the fire fighters who died freelanced, or were poorly trained, or if the training policy and recording system in the FRS was inappropriately managed, or if it is considered in that FRS that retained and whole time firefighters are equally competent, even given the disparity in available training time, then there is a multiplicity of vested interests to keep it all in house and not let the wider people know the truth.

That’s why I believe it was judged in the public interest to take this action; to find out who or what exactly was at fault. The Fire-fighters. The Managers. The Principal Managers. The FRS . The British fire service ethos of IPDS?  What?

Because something went badly wrong!

Therefore I say let justice take its course. Let’s know the truth and then the British Fire Service can move into the future learning the lessons.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 10:50:46 PM by SamFIRT »
Sam

Offline Tom Sutton

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Re: Atherstone Update
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2011, 11:27:33 PM »
Sam these three guys are charged with gross negligence manslaughter and are facing a possible seven years in gaol. Its not about finding out who or what was exactly at fault. The Fire-fighters, Managers,Principal Managers or the FRS, it will only come to light if the defence lawyers think it is likely to help their case.

The employer are not being charged with corporate manslaughter are they and it will be unlikely we will get a full transcript on the case so will we ever know the full storey.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 11:29:14 PM by Tom Sutton »
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline SamFIRT

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Re: Atherstone Update
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2011, 06:51:57 AM »
Quote
Sam these three guys are charged with gross negligence manslaughter and are facing a possible seven years in gaol. Its not about finding out who or what was exactly at fault.

Really?

What is it about then?

Don’t forget there is no vicarious liability in H&S legislation.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2011, 07:05:25 AM by SamFIRT »
Sam

Offline kurnal

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Re: Atherstone Update
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2011, 08:02:19 AM »
Don’t forget there is no vicarious liability in H&S legislation.


Sam
Are you  overlooking Section 37 (1) of the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 which states that:

“where an offence committed by a body corporate is proved to have been committed with the consent or connivance of, or to have been attributable to any neglect on the part of, any director, manager, secretary or other similar officer of the body corporate… he, as well as the body corporate, shall be guilty of that offence and shall be liable to be proceeded against and punished accordingly.”


Offline SamFIRT

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Re: Atherstone Update
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2011, 08:11:29 AM »
No

Please see my second post in this thread
Sam