Grade A Fire Alarm power supply

[David Rooney]

 see section 5839 pt 1 25.2

Basically you need a dedicated standard rated fire proof cable from a local distribution board fed from a dedicated mcb within that board. This board and any other board that may be turned off and disconnect power to the control panel should be labelled as per 25.2 F

 - Preferably not rcd protected unless required for electrical safety.

No a dedicated fuse board is not required.

Yes a double pole isolating device is required local to the control panel.

As your system - to my understanding - is essentially a 5839 pt 6 system then you would also normally need 72 hour battery standby capacity.

[Tom Sutton]

As your system - to my understanding - is essentially a 5839 pt 6 system then you would also normally need 72 hour battery standby capacity.

I think it should be a part 1 system because kernow stated “i recently viewed a grade A fire alarm in a new build block of residential flats”.
 
If you check out clause 1. Scope in Part 6 it defines what is included and what is not included.

This part of BS 5839 applies to forms of dwelling including bungalows, multi-storey houses, individual flats and maisonettes, mobile homes, sheltered houses, housing providing NHS supported living in the community (as defined in Health Technical Memorandum 88 [1]), mansions, and houses divided into several self-contained single-family dwelling units. It does not apply to hostels, caravans or boats (other than permanently moored boats used solely as residential premises), or to the communal parts of purpose-built sheltered housing and blocks of flats or maisonettes.

I accept a dedicated fuse board is not required in most cases but what about the following?

25.2 (a) Where the user requires to isolate the building during closed hours, a separate supply should be provided for the fire alarm system that should not normally be isolated during closed hours.

25.2 (b) It is not acceptable for the electricity supply to be connected via a card or coin operated meter or similar device.

[David Rooney]

As your system - to my understanding - is essentially a 5839 pt 6 system then you would also normally need 72 hour battery standby capacity.

I think it should be a part 1 system because kernow stated “i recently viewed a grade A fire alarm in a new build block of residential flats”.
 
You could be right, but not knowing if these are private residential flats of part of an HMO it may be a part 1 system or a  part 6 - Until you know the use and number of storeys it's hard to say.

If it's an HMO according to Table 1 of "part 6" communal areas need a Grade A system.  Kernow's last post maintains its a "Rafiki Grade A" - Grade A referring to a part 6 system and following his lead clause 15.2c (part 6) would apply - hence 72 hour standby.
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If you check out clause 1. Scope in Part 6 it defines what is included and what is not included.

This part of BS 5839 applies to forms of dwelling including bungalows, multi-storey houses, individual flats and maisonettes, mobile homes, sheltered houses, housing providing NHS supported living in the community (as defined in Health Technical Memorandum 88 [1]), mansions, and houses divided into several self-contained single-family dwelling units. It does not apply to hostels, caravans or boats (other than permanently moored boats used solely as residential premises), or to the communal parts of purpose-built sheltered housing and blocks of flats or maisonettes.

I accept a dedicated fuse board is not required in most cases but what about the following?

25.2 (a) Where the user requires to isolate the building during closed hours, a separate supply should be provided for the fire alarm system that should not normally be isolated during closed hours.

25.2 (b) It is not acceptable for the electricity supply to be connected via a card or coin operated meter or similar device.

I couldn't be bothered to list every scenario Tom hence my opening line - " see section 5839 pt 1 25.2 and Kernow does mention the feed from the landlord's consumer unit so it is unlikely to be on a coin meter or be turned off as the building is unlikely to ever be closed."

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[David Rooney]

Tam,  BS 5839-6 does not apply to the common parts, so this whole issue is founded on misconceptions.

Sorry I'm confused. So where Table 1 refers to Grade A systems for common areas of various dwelling types - basically a part 1 system with the appropriate clauses substituted eg 15.2c for 25.4 (pt 1) referring to standby power supplies.

If part 6 is not applicable does this get certificated to part 1 with variations ??

[kurnal]

The whole thing is a mess David and if we cant express it clearly on here what hope does the jobbing sparkie have of getting it right.

I THINK Colin was coming from here:

1- if it is a purpose built block of residential flats there should be no requirement for a fire alarm and detection system in the common areas so to pick into macro detail of one element of the installation that does not have to be there and serves little purpose is perhaps unnecessary.

2- If the common areas of a purpose built block of flats did require a fire alarm and detection system as a compensatory feature for some other weakness in the design,  then it should be a Part 1 system. Part 6 system are designed for dwellings. The common areas are not dwellings.

However in accordance with the latest ADB 2006 there is an increasing requirement for Automatic Opening Vents controlled by smoke detectors in most designs now, and there is a huge variety of hybrid equipment lashed together to achieve this.

[Tom Sutton]

David you know far more than I will every know about fire alarms my knowledge is based purely on reading the Standards.

Based on the standards, if you study clause "1. Scope" of part 6 it lists the premises that part 6 applies to and those it does not. Therefore the way I understand it if the premises does not apply then put it on the shelve and use part 1.

Even when it does apply and you go to clause 15.2 that directs you to clause 25 in part 1?

In Kernow's situation it appears, part 1 should be applied and not part 6, therefore talk about grade A is irrelevant. Because Kernow is the only one with intimate knowledge of the building therefore only he can make that decision after checking the standards.

I agree fully with you you cannot cover all the bases and the only acceptable way, is to apply the relevant standards to the situation.

 

[David Rooney]

The whole thing is a mess David and if we cant express it clearly on here what hope does the jobbing sparkie have of getting it right.

I THINK Colin was coming from here:

1- if it is a purpose built block of residential flats there should be no requirement for a fire alarm and detection system in the common areas so to pick into macro detail of one element of the installation that does not have to be there and serves little purpose is perhaps unnecessary.

2- If the common areas of a purpose built block of flats did require a fire alarm and detection system as a compensatory feature for some other weakness in the design,  then it should be a Part 1 system. Part 6 system are designed for dwellings. The common areas are not dwellings.

However in accordance with the latest ADB 2006 there is an increasing requirement for Automatic Opening Vents controlled by smoke detectors in most designs now, and there is a huge variety of hybrid equipment lashed together to achieve this.

Thanks K... so where is it acceptable to install "part 6" detection in common areas, I only ask as we see so many of these "AICO" mains powered/radio base things advertised for HMOs etc and they get to be included in the escape routes.

Are we saying this is wrong ?

[David Rooney]

David you know far more than I will every know about fire alarms my knowledge is based purely on reading the Standards.

Based on the standards, if you study clause "1. Scope" of part 6 it lists the premises that part 6 applies to and those it does not. Therefore the way I understand it if the premises does not apply then put it on the shelve and use part 1.

Even when it does apply and you go to clause 15.2 that directs you to clause 25 in part 1?

In Kernow's situation it appears, part 1 should be applied and not part 6, therefore talk about grade A is irrelevant. Because Kernow is the only one with intimate knowledge of the building therefore only he can make that decision after checking the standards.

I agree fully with you you cannot cover all the bases and the only acceptable way, is to apply the relevant standards to the situation.

 

Thanks Tom.... it is a little confusing and I think you are right technically it should be a part 1. But if it is a private residential block and doesn't need an FA then anything could have been installed - part 1 or part 6 and it wouldn't be of concern to anyone except who wrote the spec and who paid for it.

If it were installed to part 6 standard then Table 1 refers to Grade A systems for common areas of various dwelling types - you need a part 1 system with the appropriate clauses substituted eg 15.2c (pt 6) for 25.4 (pt 1) referring to standby power supplies - ie. 72 hours.

Clear as muddy coffee on a foggy day in Tokyo!!  

[kurnal]

A purpose built bock of flats conforming to the guidance in Approved Document B is not a HMO. It will be designed such that there is no need to sound a general alarm throughout the building in the event of a fire in an individual dwelling. Therefore there will be Part 6 self contained systems in each dwelling and no general fire alarm and detection system in the common areas. The common areas must be maintained sterile and free from fire risk.   

A block of flats that does not incorporate the compartmentation standards etc may be a HMO and is likely to require a suitable alarm system such that all occupants will be alarted and will evacuate in the event of a fire anywhere in the building.

The definition of what comprises a HMO and an explanation of the Housing Act  can be found in the  LACORS guidance - see pages 51-55.

This guide also sets out recommendations for design considerations and grades of systems. see page 24.

http://www.oxford.gov.uk/Direct/HousingFireSafety.pdf

[David Rooney]

Sorry to be  pain Kurnal but I just want to be clear in my head having read some of these definitions.....


So basically my 4 storey recently built block of self contained privately owned flats with no shared amenities doesn't fit the standard test of an HMO and therefore doesn't need anything in the common areas - just part 6 in the flats - It's a block of flats - I can see that.

But if the same block had been converted from an old warehouse OR one of the 20 residents paid rent to a landlord it would be an HMO and the common areas would be fine with a part 6 Grade A system of protection - Table 1 (pt 6) presumably because no one could guarantee the fire separation or because of the duty of care from the landlord to the tenant?

So are there any circumstances where anything other than a part 6 Grade A system would ever be acceptable within the common areas of an HMO ?

[Tom Sutton]

But if the same block had been converted from an old warehouse OR one of the 20 residents paid rent to a landlord it would be an HMO

David defining it as an HMO is far more complicated than that, just say its an HMO that will make it much easier.

Its only the local housing department that can define it, check out the following http://www.firesafe.org.uk/html/premises/hmos.htm to see how complicated.

[David Rooney]

But if the same block had been converted from an old warehouse OR one of the 20 residents paid rent to a landlord it would be an HMO

David defining it as an HMO is far more complicated than that, just say its an HMO that will make it much easier.

Its only the local housing department that can define it, check out the following http://www.firesafe.org.uk/html/premises/hmos.htm to see how complicated.

Ok so in my HMO in this scenario being 4 storeys high, are we still saying the only acceptable means of protecting the common areas is by a part 6 grade A system or are there any circumstances where anything other than a part 6 Grade A system would ever be acceptable within the common areas if the HMO were only 2 storeys for argument sake?

[Tom Sutton]

David I only raised this point to simplify the question and I was waiting for kurnal to respond. I will try to answer the question to the best of my ability and I am sure Kurnal will correct it, if I balls it up.

are we still saying the only acceptable means of protecting the common areas is by a part 6 grade A system or are there any circumstances where anything other than a part 6 Grade A system would ever be acceptable within the common areas if the HMO were only 2 storeys for argument sake?

The answer depends which guidance you use if you use BS 5839 pt 6 2004 then it would only be Grade A category LD2 (Table 1). Using Lacors then it could be Grade A or D or a mixed system depending on the kind of HMO. Also as it is all about risk assessment the FR Assessor could stipulate the standard required, providing he could justify his decision.

[David Rooney]

Thanks Tom I appreciate you answer and it does make sense but blimey how on earth is any one to specify a fire alarm system for such dwellings with so many conflicting guides?

And who would win in a fight, BS or Lacors ??!

So if we take over such a dwelling that has anything not resembling a part 1 system we need to qualify all our condemnations as subject to whoever or whatever guidance has been recommended....!

That'll be simple then.

If others feel the need to write guidance for fire systems in particular sectors why can they not at least coordinate the technical detail with the British Standard...?!

[kurnal]

Yes  it is surely not intended to be as prescriptive as all that and the benefits of an analogue addressable system under part 1 could be used to good advantage in some HMOs using the  opportunity to configure cause and effect for each device and to provide detection in units, protect escape routes with a double knock approach and to operate other systems such as ventialtion all in one system.