Author Topic: Estimate  (Read 11784 times)

Offline CivvyFSO

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Estimate
« on: April 15, 2011, 03:42:18 PM »
OK fire alarm people...

Can you picture this:

50m long arcade
Occupiers either side
1 Control panel for one end
1 Repeater panel for the other end
Probably just 2 sounders, 1 at each end
No detection required, no call points required
24 interface units to allow 24 occupiers to connect their alarm into the main control panel
No need to go into hidden spaces to hide cables etc

What would you estimate as a reasonable price?

Offline kurnal

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Re: Estimate
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2011, 03:58:32 PM »
That is not a simple question civvy. You would be better asking it on the fire engineers forum. Sorting the cause and effect between 24 different panels probably a mix of conventional/ two wire / addressable etc  might be a nightmare. I guess you require the new panel to take input from each individual panel and also to send outputs to each individual panel and above all you will want the whole networked arrangement to reset with a single press of a button. 

Offline Allen Higginson

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Re: Estimate
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2011, 05:48:26 PM »
Single loop addressable with loop powered sounder/beacons in the arcade and 24 I/O units to take a signal from each unit to give a specific unit in fire and give an output to the units' panels = around £1500 + commissioning+install.

I take it that you want/need to identify which unit has activated?

Offline kurnal

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Re: Estimate
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2011, 06:16:50 PM »
Thanks Buzzard. For any one else thinking of responding  please can we remember that we must not breach Competition Law and as Buzzard905 has done we must only give advice in generalistic,  ball park terms.

Offline CivvyFSO

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Re: Estimate
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2011, 09:25:27 PM »
Yes, the main panel needs to identify which unit is affected. The units will have to supply their own alarms which will have to have an extra zone to recieve the input from the main panel.

I am not looking for an estimate to go and give to anyone, I think that a punter is being ripped off to a huge extent and would like to clarify an approximate cost prior to suggesting that they shop around.

Offline CivvyFSO

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Re: Estimate
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2011, 09:26:47 PM »
Ripped off to the tune of considerably over 10k I might add.

Offline Allen Higginson

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Re: Estimate
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2011, 09:32:23 PM »
Ripped off to the tune of considerably over 10k I might add.
Is it anywhere nice  ;D??

Without getting into quotes (cheers Kurnal) that does seem VERY excessive.I'd ask them to quantify how they are meeting the required solution but that's how I'd do it.

Offline kurnal

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Re: Estimate
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2011, 07:59:56 AM »
In general terms would an I/O interface unit linking with each tenants panel enable you to reset all panels globally or would you have to reset the landlords panel then take a walk around 24 tenants panels resetting each one?

Offline Allen Higginson

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Re: Estimate
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2011, 08:46:44 AM »
In general terms would an I/O interface unit linking with each tenants panel enable you to reset all panels globally or would you have to reset the landlords panel then take a walk around 24 tenants panels resetting each one?
Depends - not an issue if you go class change just to activate the sounders (or a non-latching fire zone if available) and program the I/O to de-energize on silence,then the only panel you need to reset is the one that originated the fire signal.

Reading it again,you wouldn't need 24 I/O units as manufacturers do muliple I/O's (Apollo is a 3 channel,ours is 4) so you could get away with as few as 3 I/O units up each side with 2 X 2 core going to four units from each I/O.
Throw in a loop powered repeater and it gets easier again.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2011, 11:27:10 AM by Buzzard905 »

Offline CivvyFSO

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Re: Estimate
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2011, 12:55:38 PM »
It most certainly seems that someone is potentially going to be ripped off here. The quote that has been given is for 13k, for a system with no detection, no call points etc. This cost will ultimately be passed on to the tenants through the service charge, at the same time as many tenants having to supply their own system which is capable of being linked in to it.

Offline Allen Higginson

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Re: Estimate
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2011, 03:32:22 PM »
It most certainly seems that someone is potentially going to be ripped off here. The quote that has been given is for 13k, for a system with no detection, no call points etc. This cost will ultimately be passed on to the tenants through the service charge, at the same time as many tenants having to supply their own system which is capable of being linked in to it.
Even going for a higher mark up,it would mean that over 80% of the price is for install and commissioning!!

Offline AnthonyB

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Re: Estimate
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2011, 12:53:07 AM »
Sounds dodgy. That's why myself with the help of a consulting alarm engineer are increasingly doing project work to help clients act on FRAs and drawing up a spec and getting quotes and going though them with a fine tooth comb- we've saved client's tens of thousands of pounds.

Get another quote - I rarely go off one alone and don't use the big players who are often (not always) the ones with the massive quotes (& closed systems so you are then stuck with them for the next 10-15 years)
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Offline Allen Higginson

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Re: Estimate
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2011, 01:08:33 AM »
Sounds dodgy. That's why myself with the help of a consulting alarm engineer are increasingly doing project work to help clients act on FRAs and drawing up a spec and getting quotes and going though them with a fine tooth comb- we've saved client's tens of thousands of pounds.

Get another quote - I rarely go off one alone and don't use the big players who are often (not always) the ones with the massive quotes (& closed systems so you are then stuck with them for the next 10-15 years)
I don't agree with the whole "being stuck with them for the next 10 - 15 years" thing - once your out of your first year there's absolutely nothing to stop you going to a competant fire alarm company (not a PAT testing outfit) and getting them to do it on a "test and report" basis,with fault finding knowledge - yes,if you need to change the config you may have to get them back but that's a "changing the configuration" issue and there should be some control over who can do this (this is changing more and more with the software being made available through on way or another).
Usually when the bigger companies are the larger quote it's because it's a project not within their normal or targetted customer base and where a "fire alarm out of the box" from Welsh Wales will do the job to meet the required specification but in this case there shouldn't be much difference if you use good equipment.
The whole protocol debate is pushed by the companies who either make panels or make heads but not both.That doesn't mean that they make bad detectors or panels (in fact,I'd stand over Apollo products over any of the third party stuff) but they may not be able to offer as practical solution for a particular project as a company where everyhthing is "in-house",it's all specific for that system and the R & D invested reflects this.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2011, 01:17:57 AM by Buzzard905 »

Offline Wiz

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Re: Estimate
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2011, 10:42:58 AM »
OK fire alarm people...

Can you picture this:

50m long arcade
Occupiers either side
1 Control panel for one end
1 Repeater panel for the other end
Probably just 2 sounders, 1 at each end
No detection required, no call points required
24 interface units to allow 24 occupiers to connect their alarm into the main control panel
No need to go into hidden spaces to hide cables etc

What would you estimate as a reasonable price?

Civvy, I do this sort of estimating every day and I would put a ball-park figure on your project of £6-8K supplied, installed, programmed and commissioned. The estimate is on the basis that all occupier's existing fire alarm panels can be interfaced to using a standard input/output interface, and the site location was within about 25 miles of operating base.

Offline CivvyFSO

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Re: Estimate
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2011, 11:13:09 AM »
Thank you very much Buzzard and Wiz. You have both given me enough ammunition to warrant suggesting that they get a second quote. Please go see a thread I will be starting in Fire Safety regarding this 'dilemma'.