Fire extinguishing systems for catering equipment

[deaconj999]

All,

Does anyone have any experience in the requirements to provide fixed fire extinguishing systems for catering equipment. In particular, I mean kitchen cooking equipment commonly found in hotels, restaurants, et al where we may find the often familiar ansul or chubb system.

I am aware of the loss prevention standards, the catering risk assessments and other documents that elude to the fact that (quite rightly) it is a good idea/benefit to have these systems in place.

My dilemma is that I have come across in the last few weeks around 7 or so existing commercial kitchens, all with different layouts as you can imagine all between 6 - 40 or 50 years old. In two of them my colleague has convinced the RP responsible for both, that they need to install a fire extinguishing system in one kitchen as an upgrade and in the other there was a requirement to provide a new installation. Both were fitted.

Not wanting to set a presedence, because I know this will be a coslty adventure for the RP, as all areas belong to the same RP, I cannot establish the legal requirement. I can satisfy myself that it would be a positive move to advise that these systems SHOULD be fitted, and the RP will do what I suggest, that is fact.

The problem - I do not want them to spend yet I cannot find in all the docs I am aware of, anything that tells me categorically that they SHALL provide an extiguishing system.

Best Practice V Nice to haves V Staturory requirement...... If I go done the line of advising on installation of FE Systems for these kitchens, how would I justify my decision to advise to my Boss ?

Anyone have any experience or advice or thoughts what you would do, please bear in mind I would not have a problem to advise on an upgrade if there weren't so many premises involved at the same time......

Thanks in advance

[kurnal]

There is no prescriptive legal guidance on this in respect of life safety so far as I am aware. However :

Are all kitchens enclosed in FR construction or are some open to the restaurant?
Are there any in higher risk locations such as kitchens that open off a staircase?
Any means of escape issues in the kitchen?

I think if good means of escape and other fire precautions are in place the primary purpose will be to reduce property damage and improve business continuity.

[deaconj999]

All Kitchens are separated by FR Doors and there is ample MOE from all kitchen areas. None open onto staircases.

Most doors have perished smoke seals which have to be replaced and some kitchens do not have HD, even though most have the emergency shut off buttons. So HD will be recommended as mods to the existing AFD.

Therefore as you say, property protection would be the only reason I would recommend suppression, but I would need to justify it becasue of the sheer numbers of kitchens regardless of the date they were built, but notwithstanding the fact that I can rule out the life safety aspect, which isn't the concern in these cases, from a PP point of view I still can't find any reasonable justification to provide a blanket approach to justify any advice I would give to the RP to justify the cost to upgrade. Other than the RP has a strong vested interest in PP as well as LS.

If I adopt a consistent approach to these kitchens and insist on FS as an obvious PP advantage V cost of post fire redecoration/rebuild, which I'm sure at some pain I could convince the RP is worthwhile to upgrade!!!

..... Is there still no prescriptive guidance I can fall back on (PP wise) when the bean counter come questioning???

I'm assuming that the answer, based on your most valuable reply and my now exhausted research is still>>>>>> NO (not as yet anyway).

[nearlythere]

What was the rationale behind the installation of an extinguishing system which outweighed the provision of suitable portable extinguishing equipment and good training?

[deaconj999]

Thoughts that crossed my mind along with this were sizes of deep fate friers, surface areas and other associated equipment, but Not wanting to publicly question the colleague, an IOSH qualification surfaced.......maybe H&S crept in !

Is that possible?

[tmprojects]

I see this very often. FRA's recommending installation of fixed fire suppression system i.e. an ansul system.

Risk Assessors usually quote 'best practice' when requiring this. But is there a legal requirement? No. not at all.

BUT. it could be a 'control measure' to be considered under the fso.

[AnthonyB]

Systems are not an automatic legal requirement and more often are an insurance one.

For an existing installation, Wet Chemical portables are more than sufficient rather than a mass retrofit (which in a perfect limitless budget world would be nice, but not realistic).

A 6 litre Wet Chem achieves a 75F rating and most individual compartments in an actual fryer are between 15 & 40 litres so there is plenty of spare capacity. They are easy to use and knock down the flames in 3-5 seconds, the rest of the extinguisher being applied to cool and build up the thickness of the saponified fat layer.

Most Ansul systems I see are manual only without the fusible links and the design of pull stations appears deliberately intended to blend in with everything else and a lot of staff don't even know it's there & regardless naturally go for the extinguisher first as a natural reaction, which is a dangerous waste of time if its a foam/powder/CO2.

So I insist on the correct portable first and foremost and consider the systems as a secondary measure should the client desire extra security - but try and ensure that automatic & manual release is provided, not just manual.

[tmprojects]

Systems are not an automatic legal requirement and more often are an insurance one.

For an existing installation, Wet Chemical portables are more than sufficient rather than a mass retrofit (which in a perfect limitless budget world would be nice, but not realistic).

A 6 litre Wet Chem achieves a 75F rating and most individual compartments in an actual fryer are between 15 & 40 litres so there is plenty of spare capacity. They are easy to use and knock down the flames in 3-5 seconds, the rest of the extinguisher being applied to cool and build up the thickness of the saponified fat layer.

Most Ansul systems I see are manual only without the fusible links and the design of pull stations appears deliberately intended to blend in with everything else and a lot of staff don't even know it's there & regardless naturally go for the extinguisher first as a natural reaction, which is a dangerous waste of time if its a foam/powder/CO2.

So I insist on the correct portable first and foremost and consider the systems as a secondary measure should the client desire extra security - but try and ensure that automatic & manual release is provided, not just manual.

AB i cannot fault what you say. I would like to add though that knowledge of, and training in, wet chemcial and fire blankets is pretty poor.

Usually you will find the kitchen is 'contracted out' so arguably has its own RP and is a seperate premises. i get all the assurances in the world that they have all the relevant training but when i ask the chef or other staff staff they say they have never received training. In fact. I can confidently say i have never visited a kitchen that is sub contracted that has demonstrated any level of compliance in respect of training

[Allen Higginson]

What about Fryertrace,the kitchen hood variation of the Firetrace system?It uses a potassium based solution.
Only suggesting this because had to look at Firetrace for cabinet protection.

[tmprojects]

Sorry Buzz. this is not about what system is best. But about whether suppression is appropriate.

GFSM. In short. each premises should be judged on its own merit.

'How would i justify this to my boss' Justify it two fold. one to acheive compliance. another to reduce insurance premiums.

[Allen Higginson]

Sorry,hadn't read the post correctly and was giving an option only.

[deaconj999]

Thanks all,

I thought as much as I couldn't find anything that told me there was a 'new' legal requirement to have it fitted. I believe my worst fear is true, having to go against my colleagues prior insistence on having it replaced and fitted in the first 2 kitchens.

[nearlythere]

Has your colleague an arrangment with the system provider?
Just a thought.

[BCM]

No one has mentioned the extract system yet, is there a PPM for filter cleaning?  I haven't come across an auto system that comes anywhere close to dealing with gunge and fat in the extract, at least with a class F and training, the operator has a slim chance!!

[AnthonyB]

Some fixed systems have nozzles in the extract duct, but only covering the first 12" or so. If the system is fusible link they may catch a fire just before it creeps to far if you are lucky, but for the majority of UK installations that are pull station only by the time anyone remembers to fire it off a contaminated duct could have become involved and one the duct goes up it's game over (& goodbye building in some cases)

Duct cleaning is as you say an important aspect of prevention and containment and it would be foolish to think that because you had spent a fortune on a fixed system you could dispense with proper cleaning regimes (not good for hygiene either!).

Fire safety is a package of measures!