Author Topic: Hostel Staff Training & false alarms  (Read 18717 times)

Offline Tadees

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Hostel Staff Training & false alarms
« on: May 23, 2011, 06:08:39 PM »
Two houses, mirror image of one another, converted in to a 16 bed hostel. Conversion believed to have been in 2003 but, from the compartmentation, it doesn't appear to have been in accordance with building regs. Unoccupied basement, with bedrooms spread over ground, first and second floor. 

The hostel is managed on a 24 hour basis.

Service users either have mental health issues or are homeless. The management also state there is the potential for drunkenness and drug abuse, although they try to manage it.

Smoking in the hostel is banned but it goes on and had been the cause of false alarms, which has resulted in service users getting used to it and not evacuating.

Care is not provided. The service users have tenancy agreements but rent is paid by the local authority.

Kitchen and bathroom are shared and the bedrooms only have beds and personal belongings. 

Personal electrical equipment is prohibited with the exception of TV & radio.

Staff have keys to the rooms.

Fire Alarm is L2 by the looks of things.

Emergency lighting is installed in the common areas. 

Travel distance in the bedroom is no more than 5m. Depending on where the room is on the first floor tenants can make their way out to the main entrance in either 20m or 25m

On the second floor they can either go down the main staircase or use the alternative staircase in the other house & so TD is not a problem

Fire doors look old fire doors i.e. they are old doors with perko closers. Doors are 44mm thick and 3 hinges indicating that they are fire doors. Doors have or had smoke seals and strips.

However, there are the following problems with various doors. Some have one or more of the same problems listed below:

1. Cold smoke seals and intumescent strips removed.
2. Doors not closing in to rebates.
3. Perko chains broken
4. Holes in doors where locks were.

The tricky bit is that the member of staff can get in to rooms and they evacuate the service users.

My specific queries are as follows;

1. Do I suggest door upgrade or replacement?
2. Do I go by the guide and say a fire door is the set and therefore should be purchased and installed as a set?
3. Under The RRO the common areas and the ground floor office where the member of staff works falls under The Order? What about the tenant's rooms? If management has keys, does this indicate that rooms are a place of work?
4. Are staff obliged to evacuate tenants under The RRO?
5. Is the member of staff obliged to use an extinguisher in the common area?
6. Is the member of staff obliged to use the extinguisher in the tenant's room?
7. What purpose does non-maintained emergency lighting serve when there is the potential to switch off the normal lights at night in the common areas when they go to sleep at night? Should the lighting not be maintained?
8. House 2 has an independent panel to House 1. The only way a fire can spread is across the 2nd floor as there is a connecting fire door between the 2 premises, which can be used to access the alternative staircase. The nightwatchman, situated on the ground floor, would not here the fire alarm in next door's premises. Should the alarms be interlinked?
9. The tenants do have understanding but they are a bit slow. If staff are not required to evacuate, how can the message be got across to them that they should evacuate immediately when the fire alarm goes off?
10. If someone is in deep sleep due to medication and staff are not required to evacuate, does the RRO allow them to perish?
11. What to do about the false alarms?
« Last Edit: May 23, 2011, 08:52:03 PM by Tadees »
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Offline kurnal

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Re: Hostel Staff Training & false alarms
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2011, 02:07:32 PM »
Hi Tadees, you arent asking for much help then ;)

Go back to basics.
What is the use of the building.
What legislation controls this use.
Who enforces the legislation.
Which guidance document is relevant.

It sounds on the face of it a bit of a hotchpotch. Is it a hostel, an HMO or NHS supported living in the community?
If the latter have you taken a look at HTM88?

Offline Tadees

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Re: Hostel Staff Training & false alarms
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2011, 04:53:19 PM »
It's a hostel and recognised as such by LA.
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Offline tmprojects

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Re: Hostel Staff Training & false alarms
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2011, 10:34:16 PM »
Tadees,

with the greatest of respect, and considering the fact it is a high risk premises with vulnerable persons. if you need to ask this many questions i would recommend you seek help from a competent person.

Although this forum is a font of good knowledge we can only answer questions you pose and can only answer in a broad sense having not seen the premises. this runs the risk of missing serious risks should you not ask the right questions.

however, answers to you questions.

1. Do I suggest door upgrade or replacement?
YES

2. Do I go by the guide and say a fire door is the set and therefore should be purchased and installed as a set?
 IF ITS RISK CRITICAL. YES

3. Under The RRO the common areas and the ground floor office where the member of staff works falls under The Order? What about the tenant's rooms? If management has keys, does this indicate that rooms are a place of work?
IN SHELTERED HOUSING EVEN THE ROOMS COME UNDER THE RRO REGARDLESS OF IT BEING A PLACE OF WORK OR NOT. A HMO IS NOT A SINGLE PRIVATE DWELLING

4. Are staff obliged to evacuate tenants under The RRO?
YOUR ARE REQUIRED TO PROVIDE ADEQUATE ARRANGEMENTS INCLUDING PROCEDURES FOR THEIR SAFE EVACUATION.

5. Is the member of staff obliged to use an extinguisher in the common area?
YES AND SHOULD BE TRAINED

6. Is the member of staff obliged to use the extinguisher in the tenant's room?
YES

7. What purpose does non-maintained emergency lighting serve when there is the potential to switch off the normal lights at night in the common areas when they go to sleep at night? Should the lighting not be maintained?
LIGHTING FOR M OF E SHOULD NOT BE SWITCHED OFF

8. House 2 has an independent panel to House 1. The only way a fire can spread is across the 2nd floor as there is a connecting fire door between the 2 premises, which can be used to access the alternative staircase. The nightwatchman, situated on the ground floor, would not here the fire alarm in next door's premises. Should the alarms be interlinked?
YES. IF YOU CAN PASS FROM ONE BUILDING TO ANOTHER ON A DAY TO DAY BASIS THEN IT IS A SINGLE PREMISES AND SHOULD HAVE ONE SYSTEM OR BE LINKED

9. The tenants do have understanding but they are a bit slow. If staff are not required to evacuate, how can the message be got across to them that they should evacuate immediately when the fire alarm goes off?
IF THIS IS SHELTERED HOUSING FOR VULNERABLE PEOPLE THEN YOU SHOULD ASSIST IN EVACUATION (FIRE MARSHALLS) A SWEEP AND BANGING ON DOORS IS THE USUAL. REMEMBER... YOU CAN NOT PHYSICALLY MAKE SOMEONE EVACUATE IF THEY DON'T WANT TO. BUT YOU CAN SANCTION THEM AFTERWARDS

10. If someone is in deep sleep due to medication and staff are not required to evacuate, does the RRO allow them to perish?
NO!!! OF COURSE NOT...IN SHELTERED HOUSING. IF YOU HAVE THIS KNOWLEDGE THEN YOU SHOULD MAKE SPECIFIC ARRANGEMENTS FOR THEM I.E. A PERSONAL EMERGENCY EVACUATION PLAN (peep)

11. What to do about the false alarms?
IN THIS KNID OF PREMISES YOU WILL GET THEM MORE OFTEN THAN OTHERS. ENFORCE SANCTIONS FOR DELIBERATE ACTIVATION AND MAYBE ESTABLISH A DAY TIME SEEK AND SEARCH POLICY. CONTACT YOUR LOCAL BRIGADE FOR MORE GUIDANCE.

HOWEVER.... MY COMMENTS ARE GENERAL TO THIS TYPE OF PREMISES. YOU REALLY NEED TO SEEK ASSISTANCE FROM A COMPETENT PERSON.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 11:06:45 PM by tmprojects »

Offline ahmedh

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Re: Hostel Staff Training & false alarms
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2011, 10:17:33 AM »
Just some further comments from me:

1. Yes. If cost is an issue, prioritise based on risk. What high risk areas/rooms are there? switchroom, kitchens etc. Smoke control (as well as fire) is of vital importance in this type of building imo.

4. This is covered by the RRO under article 15: nominate a sufficient number of competent persons to assist in evacuation of the relevant persons.

5+6 I would class extinguishers as work equipment and as such training is required under PUWER as well.

7. NM is for mains failure.

9. Whats the db lvl at bed head? You can get detectors with built in sounders if difficult to achieve a suitable level.

10. PEEP definitely the way to go, consideration of mobility whilst under the influence and means of assisted evacuation aid ski pad, evac chairs etc. i would also consider having your higher risk residents at a lower level.

11. You need to look at the trends, what have the causes of uwfs been?

Is the alarm system analogue addressable? It would easier to sanction e.g. if detector head taken off so that they can smoke in rooms

Offline Geoff

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Re: Hostel Staff Training & false alarms
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2011, 02:07:26 PM »
I am intrigued as to what you mean by 'sheltered housing'?

Offline Tadees

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Re: Hostel Staff Training & false alarms
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2011, 12:15:27 PM »
Geoff - My understanding is that sheltered housing is where there is a degree of care and permanency of residence, whereas a hostel lacks these elements.

To be honest, I don't think anybody really knows.  I studied law and the definitional and conceptual imprecision of fire safety would have barristers having a field day.

I worked with FSOs of differing experince and I can tell you that they all have differing understanding of basic concepts (see travel distance thread of mine).

A Divisional Officer, who has worked in fire safety for many years permitted TD to stop in a 35 meter protected corridor in a school, which is obviously incorrect.  However, in a HMO, the reality is the bedroom doors are corridor doors and not storey exits, yet you wouldn't find anybody quibbling with that; the reason being it's impractical to have a true storey exit in a HMO.  Hence, it's not ok to stop travel distance in a protected corridor where people are awake and potentially supervised, yet it's perfectly legitimate to stop TD outside a bedroom door in a HMO where people sleep.

On to definitional imprecision, what is a protected staircase?  If a two rooms open out in to the staircase at the base and they have fire doors, is this a protected staircase?  How about, if 10 rooms in a line open out into the staircase and they all have fire doors on.  Does this now cease to be a protected staircase and become a corridor approach instead?

Ask Fire Safety Officers where I work and I can guarantee they will all give you different answers.  My solution is: as long as I think it's safe based on the risk and what little I have been taught, that's fine by me.

Friday afternoon rant over
Some people are like clouds. When they disappear it's a brighter day.

Offline Steven N

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Re: Hostel Staff Training & false alarms
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2011, 12:53:34 PM »
You do sometimes come across things that are seriously scary!
These are my views and not the views of my employer

Offline tmprojects

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Re: Hostel Staff Training & false alarms
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2011, 11:45:16 PM »
I am intrigued as to what you mean by 'sheltered housing'?

Geoff, good question.

a quote from the charity SHELTER.
 
What is sheltered housing?

Sheltered housing gives older people the independence of having their own flat with the security of having an alarm system and a warden. The flats are usually small self-contained units or single rooms in a complex, which often has a communal social area. It is also possible to find sheltered housing to rent or to buy.


This is the original meaning. It has however grown in use and it is used often to refere to;

homeless hostels.
womens refuge hostels
drug alcohol residential hostels
Probation hostels
basically anywere where the premises is staffed to provide care for the residents.

My comments were intended to apply to all of these, however you were right to question it.
I hope i have not confused you.

Offline colin todd

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Re: Hostel Staff Training & false alarms
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2011, 12:15:02 AM »
Terence,  should I offer the services of the 14 competent guys I employ to do the job for him?
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline kurnal

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Re: Hostel Staff Training & false alarms
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2011, 09:50:54 AM »
Tadees - if you can get hold of a copy of the original guidance for the Fire Precautions Act (little A5 sized red blue or brown booklets) they were much more helpful than the big thick tomes we have to work with nowadays.

In respect of protected staircases they made a comment to the effect that  an absolute minimum of doors to rooms  should open onto a protected staircase, apart from wcs. They made the point that if a number of rooms opened directly into the staircase, or if high risk rooms opened into a staircase then you should consider very carefully whether the staircase is a protected route.

Little nuggets of wisdom that so often are lost nowadays. For the same reason I regularly refer to the 1972 and 1976 editions of the Building Regulations for background information- look out for them all on ebay and amazon, well worth the investment.

The old CP3 Ch4 pt 1 that so clearly made the point that there should be a direct access to a final exit from the base of a staircase- a point you will not find so explicitly made in the current ADB. So basic they thought everyone would understand it - but sadly they dont. BB7 compared to BB100  oh dear  I could go on all day.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2011, 10:28:04 AM by kurnal »

Offline colin todd

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Re: Hostel Staff Training & false alarms
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2011, 10:10:46 PM »
The old FP Act guides talked rubbish about protected staircases in that respect. I remember talking to one of the HMI responsible for one of the guides and asked him if he really thought that an open plan office opening directly onto a staircase meant that the stairway wasnt a protected stairway.  He looked puzzled and asked where on earth you would ever see such an arrangement because surely all offices had corridors leading onto the stairway, with the offices off the corridors.

I never bothered paying heed to any of the guides after that.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline SamFIRT

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Re: Hostel Staff Training & false alarms
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2011, 08:10:57 AM »
People living in ivory towers rarely see true life, especially when they are wearing new clothes designed for the Emperor, and even more so when the proletariat are so sycophantic they won’t explain the faults of the tailor to the tower dwellers, that is always assuming the tower dwellers are not so beguiled by the designer label they are wearing that they would actually listen to critique.

Equally true in all hierarchies.  ::)

Including Blogs.  ;D

What is needed is more open discussion and peer review. To obtain the truth and identify the correct actions to take based on the truth

In my humble opinion  ;)
Sam

Offline Tom Sutton

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Re: Hostel Staff Training & false alarms
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2011, 09:54:06 AM »

I never bothered paying heed to any of the guides after that.

Why would you Colin I was not aware fire consultants issued fire certificates?
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

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Re: Hostel Staff Training & false alarms
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2011, 04:39:37 PM »
I remember talking to one of the HMI responsible for one of the guides and asked him if he really thought that an open plan office opening directly onto a staircase meant that the stairway wasnt a protected stairway. 

Baron Todd (My bestest friend)

I strongly recommend you report to that big place in Moreton in the Marsh (where they burn fire engines) for immediate re-training!

A protected staircase isn't a protected staircase unless accessed from corridor or lobby approach. A protected staircase must lead to a final exit, or into a protected route which leads to a final exit, that's the law you know. I bet you are one of these rebels whom allow one line of F/R with AFD aren't you ??