Thumb turns on emergency exit doors

[davincey]

Hello all

I thought I would ask this just before I go toe to toe with the FRS!

A recent deficiency notice has stated as a breach that thumb turn devices can not be used on emergency exit doors....  My understanding is that as thumb turn devices qualify as "simple fastening which can be readily operated", "without the use of a key and without having to manipulate more than one mechanism" as set out in ADB-B 5.11 they are acceptable. Am I wrong?

Further they have stated that the front entrance door (which is not interfaced with the alarm for security reasons) should fail to safe on activation of the fire alarm despite the fact that they are fitted with a "manual door release unit (type A) to BS EN 54-11:2001 positioned at the door on the side approached by people making their escape" again, as set out in the same part of the legislation.

Am I missing something here? Or is this just a differing opinion?

[davincey]

Oh and its a shame this hadn't come to me by the 16th.... All those brains to pick at the Housing Sector NAtional Forum!! (Including yours Mr Todd!!)

[wee brian]

They're usualy OK for small numbers.

[Wiz]

I don't know much about this subject, but I was once told by a fire officer that thumbwheels were acceptable since it is an entirely manually operated device. I always found this a bit strange because they are not the easiest thing to operate, especially in an emergency. I'm sure that someone who knows the actual recommendations will add their comments to this.

In respect of the your front door, BS7273-4 requires both an emergency door release and an interface to fire alarm system. This has been discussed on other threads on this forum. I agree with those that say if you have an emergency door release switch (green box) properly installed to all the BS7273-4 recommendations then surely the recommended link to the fire alarm is not of such great importance. But the BS recommends otherwise.

[ahmedh]

As you point out they are acceptable according to ADB.

You haven't mentioned the occupancy characteric of the property or occupancy numbers which may be the basis on which they have issued.

From 7273-4:" In such cases, it is normally required that the doors open permanently in the event of fire or failure of the power
supply to the doors". It also states that this BS is itself a code of practice and not prescriptive.

If you look at BS9999 2008 it clearly states one of 3 (i recall) 2 of which are mentioned here: automatic release on fire alarm and green box (the other being power failure)

I would nicely ask on what basis they have issued the notice 

[nearlythere]

What type of premises are they and what sort on numbers are we talking about?

[ahmedh]

What type of premises are they and what sort on numbers are we talking about?

Didn't i just ask that lol 

[nearlythere]

What type of premises are they and what sort on numbers are we talking about?

Didn't i just ask that lol 

Ah. So you did  (memo to NT - read (all of) the feckin posts next time)

By the way, has Karissa caught up with you yet? 

[ahmedh]

No, i am currently in witness protection. They are moving me around alot. Spent the heatwave in a treehouse but got washed out by the thunderstorms. Currently in the market for a bomb shelter 

[nearlythere]

No, i am currently in witness protection. They are moving me around alot. Spent the heatwave in a treehouse but got washed out by the thunderstorms. Currently in the market for a bomb shelter 

Hardly enough. Believe Karissa was special forces but chucked out for being too over enthusiastic when it came to administering jungle justice.
Take care.

[AnthonyB]

I am happy with emergency escape deadlocks & have them retrofitted where the risk profile is suitable, usually lesser numbers of people and those familiar with the premises (usually staff).

However if you are having large numbers or the public present then usually you are looking at needing to go for a BSEN specification panic fastening.

As for electromagnetic locks, my interpretation of the DCLG guides and ADB is that normally they should have all three fail-safes - power failure, fire alarm interface and local break glass & you need to justify why you omit one or more.

[Wiz]

................As for electromagnetic locks, my interpretation of the DCLG guides and ADB is that normally they should have all three fail-safes - power failure, fire alarm interface and local break glass & you need to justify why you omit one or more.

AnthonyB, do the DCLG guides and ADB also have any reference to compliance with BS7273-4?

[AnthonyB]

No they pre-date it and are a lot more client friendly than regurgitating that BS, after all they are still benchmark guidance

[Wiz]

Client friendly or not, where do they position themselves in 'recommendation' document's validity in respect of a court of law? Higher or lower than BS?

IF there was a variance in guidance/recommendation between all these documents, which would be best to follow, in your opinion?

[wee brian]

Approved Documents have statutory status - section 7 of the building Act. British Standards are books written by a bunch of people.