LANDMARK FIRE SAFETY PROSECUTION OF FIRE RISK ASSESSOR

[Wiz]

A National Register just puts another beauracratic layer, increases cost and does not improve standards. Look at ordinary Health and Safety  IOSH, NEBOSH and a practitioners national register but still problems with risk assessments. It is enforcement that improves standards so well done Nottingham......hope Essex can do the same......at arms length of course

I bet Essex love the result in this case; A RP with a FRA gets jailed!

Far better to use a FRA provider which is related by only a short arms length from those who enforce/prosecute! Bound to be OK - it's almost as good as Crown immunity!

[Eli]

Would we allow gas engineers to be unregulated? The answer is no. So where do we go from here? Should we not just grasp the nettle and go for an independent accrediatation scheme like Gas Safe for risk assessors? Entry requirements should be fair and at minimal cost to the assessor, the simple goal being to prove the assessor is competent, and can be accredited.

What is the average daily rate for an assessor?

Would you expect the accreditation to be more or less than this average?

Do you want the checkers checked?

Would you expect the assessment to conform to the ISO standard for competent persons schemes?

I think very few people understand what is involved in competence assessment; it shouldn’t be a token rubber stamp. It should do what it says on the tin, imagine you want a the services of a professional do you want a third party approval that says This guy looks ok on paper’ or do you want one that says ‘This guy is alright and will stay alright’?

I think I may set up the Rubber Stamp Approvals Company (RSAC) send me your CV and £50 quid and you’ll get your certificate….say no more!.

I think you may have been misinformed about third party approval by those who may not understand it or indeed may not have been through it. Independent audit of schemes is one reason they can be trusted.

[kurnal]

Eli I believe it is not really possible to compare the registers operated by the professional institutions  with the FRACS register which to my knowledge is the only one at the moment subject to independent audit? I am not convinced that any scheme run by peers and based soley on peer review can ever be the same league as one that has achieved UKAS accreditation. (and by the way I am a member of one of them).

As for daily rates for assessors that is entirely driven by market forces, overheads and margins. Provided costs and subsistence, travel and overnight expenses for the accreditation officers are reasonable and transparent there isn't a problem. I would not expect it to include first class travel and five star hotels though- they are not civil servants after all

[Midland Retty]

Hi Eli

Firstly for an accreditation scheme to work it has to be accessible to all, not just the bigger, financially flexible companies, but to self employed assessors too. I realise schemes dont come cheap, but if you make it too expensive you will simply price the smaller people out of the game, which is unfair.

Secondly the scheme must be IMHO independent and UCAS accredited. Peer reviewed schemes can be inevitably biased, whether we like it or not - those peers may well be people you are in competition with.

Thirdly it must never ever be a rubber stamped token accreditation scheme.It has to be a scheme which actually tests those being accredited. Ask them to risk assess staged scenarios perhaps, so that the examiner can watch how the assessor works, and what the assessor has or has not picked up. Then some sort of written test of theoretical knowledge of fire safety.

Im not saying I have the answers, Im just thinking of ways you can test competency without physically shadowing an assessor when he or she is out and about undertaking risk assessments.

Im also thinking of ways to negate the possibility of Joe Bloggs submitting three ficticious risk assessments for a panel to scrutinise.

[Tom W]

I think if the Gov had the decision again it wouldn't have a gas safe scheme. However without wishing to belittle gas techs there is only so far their knowledge needs to go, with RAs there is a long way you can go and lots of different leagues.

There is the comment about these schemes being commercially viable for big and small companies, this is silly as it doesn't matter the size of your company. If you have one assessor you will pay one price if I have fifty I will pay fifity times what you have to but I should generate 50 times the income.

An independant audit of the auditors is a good idea but also has its pitfalls, with peer review at least the panel have a decent working knowledge of what you are talking about. If the auditors were any good they wouldn't be doing audits would they not? Whats the saying about teachers? failed at their career so they teach.

I also have concerns that the company offering a UKAS stamped accreditation owns a company offering Fire Risk Assessments, that just happens to be based in the same building.

There is no definative answer, you can argue every point. Prosecutions like todays should hopefully scare some cowboys out but Im a keen believer in keeping your own house in order. I can prove we are competent, we are ISO 9001, we keep ourselves up to date, we have access to the British Standards, we will introduce to clients for references etc etc its not all about a certificate.

I have never been asked to see a certificate.

[Jim Creak]

I totally agree accreditation does not mean you get a good job. You can be third party accredited to ISO 9000 and still produce crap.....It just means it is consistent crap......accreditation are valid references from satisfied clients.

[Davo]

Jim does have a point, certain H & S accreditors are better than others

As from other threads, when you check the registers, the amount of topics they specialise in would make one believe you are employing a guru.
Someone ought to tell them a Nebosh fire certificate does not make you a fire risk assessor for anything bigger than a small enterprise or offices.

One of these days someone's ar*e will be hanging out due to the poor quality RA

davo

[lingmoor]

i suspect theres one or two very twitchy Assessors right now

[Chariot]

I suspect that one or two of those twitchy assessors will be accredited and have certificates to burn

[Tom W]

I suspect that one or two of those twitchy assessors will be accredited and have certificates to burn

Thats a silly comment

[xwmfs]

Good grief they be asking Brigade fire safety officers to be offically accredited next

[William 29]

Good grief they be asking Brigade fire safety officers to be offically accredited next

That's actually not a bad point!  I get frustrated when we conduct assessments that are scrutinised over the most minor of points and deemed not suitable and sufficient when it is clear there is lack of knowledge and understanding of risk on the auditor’s part when the assessors have to jump through all the hoops.  We all know they there are still fire officers out there thrown in at the deep end with little or no training and the experience that there is, is fast retiring.  There should be a competency standard for the auditors as well in my view.

[Midland Retty]

There is the comment about these schemes being commercially viable for big and small companies, this is silly as it doesn't matter the size of your company. If you have one assessor you will pay one price if I have fifty I will pay fifity times what you have to but I should generate 50 times the income.

No, not silly at all Piglet  - you have missed the point completely.

How much do you think a self employed assessor can afford to get through accreditation? £500? £1000? 2000? 50?

Do you not realise that a large well established consultancy will have more financial mobility than Joe Bloggs to afford putting their people through accreditation. Im not saying they pay less per head.

Infact go and have a look at the thread discussing the jailed risk assessor, my point is proven fairly and squarely there.

[Tom W]

There is a 3rd party accreditation for enforcers

[William 29]

There is a 3rd party accreditation for enforcers

Do you mean the IFE one?  If so just look at how many Brigade areas do not have any auditors listed?