Author Topic: Latest RRFSO determination outcome  (Read 18375 times)

Offline nearlythere

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Re: Latest RRFSO determination outcome
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2011, 03:20:46 PM »
Retty,  There is hope for you yet.  Next time I come over to dinner at Retty Towers and we send Mrs Retty to the utility room while we have the brandy and cigars, we can deliberate over how WISE this determination is.

I am surprised it even went to determination.  It is a no brainer that even the DCLG could not get wrong.  Nothing in the facts cited would lead me to believe that the care home in question did not need self closing devices.  In fact, even the smoke and mirrors of fire engineering calculations (which is more and more what fire engineering has become) would lead me to be certain they they ARE required.

And yes, HTM 84 is wrong, it always was, still is and always will be.  I hate to mention the fact, but, for donkeys years, the SCOTTISH version of HTM 84 said that you DID need self-closers and they should be swing frees.  Interestingly, also there would be no debate about this under the current Scottish Building Regs, and certainly not post Rosepark.

Does anyone know who on earth thought fit to take this to a determination and which FRS was sensible enough to stand their ground on the subject.  (Please tell me it was not LFEPA as I do not want my illusions about them to be shattered.)

Finally, Grand Wizard Retty, there will be poor care home operators once you and I become residents, as we will raid the drinks cabinet every evening while the staff are fiddling about doing something that would not be closing fire doors.
Do I detect a faint but distinct aroma of stale pee eminating from the previous post?
Stage 1 has set in.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline jokar

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Re: Latest RRFSO determination outcome
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2011, 05:44:39 PM »
WISE by name perhaps but not perhaps in the nature of the determination.  Your latest history book is good guidance but pot, kettle and black come to mind when you speak of other guidance.  Perhaps you could get a contract to rewrite it all as you keep mentioning for hotels, where are the bodies?

Offline Tom Sutton

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Re: Latest RRFSO determination outcome
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2011, 08:03:05 PM »

Perhaps you could get a contract to rewrite it all as you keep mentioning for hotels, where are the bodies?

Try Rosepark http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/opinions/2011FAI18.pdf £16000?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2011, 08:10:39 PM by Tom Sutton »
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline nearlythere

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Re: Latest RRFSO determination outcome
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2011, 08:16:10 PM »
Did the Rosepark fire start in a bedroom?
Perhaps those are the fires we should be looking at?
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline colin todd

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Re: Latest RRFSO determination outcome
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2011, 07:56:13 PM »
Wtih regard to the above posts:

Nearlythere: Cant understand the reference to stale pee, other than to note that, in a well run care home such aromas do not occur.

Jokar: I must have the wrong language module plugged in to my brain today, cos you have lost me too with history books, pots and kettles, etc.  As for the bodies, I assume that, in terms of fire safety, you have been living on Mars for the past few years, with only temporary excursions to planet earth and had not noticed that 14 people died in a care home, representing the largest loss of life in any single fire since the King's Cross disaster.

Nearlythere:  I assume that you have not botehred to read the Determination on Rosepark, which we required all of our consultants to read as essential CPD.  I trust that you will not advise on fire precautions in care homes until you do, but, to answer your question, no, the fire did not start in a bedroom, but here is what the Sherrif Principal said about the open bedroom doors:

It would have been a reasonable precaution for all bedroom doors to have been closed in the event that a fire alarm
sounded. In particular it would have been a reasonable precaution for the management of Rosepark to have fitted
devices to ensure that bedroom doors were closed automatically in the event that the fire alarm sounded.
In particular it should be noted:
(i) in corridors 3 and 4 (where all the fatalities occurred) only in rooms 10 and 11 were the bedroom doors closed;
(ii) in the event that there were medical or nursing reasons for leaving any particular bedroom door open, or a care
home resident reasonably wished to make a choice to have his or her door open or ajar at night, members of staff could
close all doors in the event that a fire alarm sounded, or doors could be fitted with mechanisms which would close
them automatically in the event that the fire alarm sounded;
(iii) at all relevant times there were available in the market a number of technological solutions to the apparent
conflict between fire safety and other demands, namely devices that could have been fitted to the bedroom doors in
order to make sure that they would be closed automatically should the fire alarm sound;
(iv) esto the care home adopted a strategy which relied solely on the action of staff to close bedroom doors in the
event of a fire, a care home adopting such a strategy would require to address itself seriously to the training and
drilling of the staff in that regard and, potentially, whether the number of staff on duty at any time would be sufficient
to ensure that this action could be taken;
(v) If a suitable and sufficient risk assessment had been carried out at Rosepark (see Chapter 44(6) hereof) that risk
assessment would have addressed how the fire safety requirement to have doors closed in the event of a fire would be
achieved and would, in that context, have recommended the use of one of the technological devices that were
available;
(vi) the bedroom doors, if they had all been closed, would have withstood the fire in the corridor for a period of time
sufficient for the fire to die back from lack of air, so that fire penetration into the bedrooms would not, in the absence
of some exceptional circumstances causing flame impingement directly on the door, have occurred;
(vii) given that the two residents in corridor 4 who had closed doors did not, ultimately, survive, it cannot be said with
SHERIFFDOM OF SOUTH STRATHCLYDE DUMFRIES AND GALLOWAY
file:///C|/Users/cgoasduff.SCS/Desktop/temp/CURRENT/FAI%2018%20Rosepark.htm[19/05/2011 10:41:30]
certainty that any of the residents in this corner would have survived even if the doors had been closed. However,
closing the doors on its own would have made a significant difference to their prospects.
Had the residents in the rooms in corridor 4 apart from rooms 10 and 11 had their doors closed, their deaths might have
been avoided.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 07:58:16 PM by colin todd »
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline jokar

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Re: Latest RRFSO determination outcome
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2011, 08:26:29 PM »
I had no idea that people live on Mars, most of us frequent Planet Earth!  I seem to recall that the disaster at Rosepark was in part due to the staff not going to the correct area and therefore not being able to put the management plan into place.

Offline colin todd

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Re: Latest RRFSO determination outcome
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2011, 08:31:28 PM »
Jokar, not wishing to teach you about the English language as well as history, but I think you must mean most of us "INHABIT" planet earth.  The word "FREQUENT", when used as a verb, means to visit habitually, somewhere that you are not resident.

As for Rosepark, I suggest you take the time to read the findings of what was the longest running FAI in Scottish history, rather than select one particular finding, relevant though it was. 
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Offline nearlythere

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Re: Latest RRFSO determination outcome
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2011, 09:56:54 AM »
Wtih regard to the above posts:

Nearlythere: Cant understand the reference to stale pee, other than to note that, in a well run care home such aromas do not occur.

Jokar: I must have the wrong language module plugged in to my brain today, cos you have lost me too with history books, pots and kettles, etc.  As for the bodies, I assume that, in terms of fire safety, you have been living on Mars for the past few years, with only temporary excursions to planet earth and had not noticed that 14 people died in a care home, representing the largest loss of life in any single fire since the King's Cross disaster.

Nearlythere:  I assume that you have not botehred to read the Determination on Rosepark, which we required all of our consultants to read as essential CPD.  I trust that you will not advise on fire precautions in care homes until you do, but, to answer your question, no, the fire did not start in a bedroom, but here is what the Sherrif Principal said about the open bedroom doors:

It would have been a reasonable precaution for all bedroom doors to have been closed in the event that a fire alarm
sounded. In particular it would have been a reasonable precaution for the management of Rosepark to have fitted
devices to ensure that bedroom doors were closed automatically in the event that the fire alarm sounded.
In particular it should be noted:
(i) in corridors 3 and 4 (where all the fatalities occurred) only in rooms 10 and 11 were the bedroom doors closed;
(ii) in the event that there were medical or nursing reasons for leaving any particular bedroom door open, or a care
home resident reasonably wished to make a choice to have his or her door open or ajar at night, members of staff could
close all doors in the event that a fire alarm sounded, or doors could be fitted with mechanisms which would close
them automatically in the event that the fire alarm sounded;
(iii) at all relevant times there were available in the market a number of technological solutions to the apparent
conflict between fire safety and other demands, namely devices that could have been fitted to the bedroom doors in
order to make sure that they would be closed automatically should the fire alarm sound;
(iv) esto the care home adopted a strategy which relied solely on the action of staff to close bedroom doors in the
event of a fire, a care home adopting such a strategy would require to address itself seriously to the training and
drilling of the staff in that regard and, potentially, whether the number of staff on duty at any time would be sufficient
to ensure that this action could be taken;
(v) If a suitable and sufficient risk assessment had been carried out at Rosepark (see Chapter 44(6) hereof) that risk
assessment would have addressed how the fire safety requirement to have doors closed in the event of a fire would be
achieved and would, in that context, have recommended the use of one of the technological devices that were
available;
(vi) the bedroom doors, if they had all been closed, would have withstood the fire in the corridor for a period of time
sufficient for the fire to die back from lack of air, so that fire penetration into the bedrooms would not, in the absence
of some exceptional circumstances causing flame impingement directly on the door, have occurred;
(vii) given that the two residents in corridor 4 who had closed doors did not, ultimately, survive, it cannot be said with
SHERIFFDOM OF SOUTH STRATHCLYDE DUMFRIES AND GALLOWAY
file:///C|/Users/cgoasduff.SCS/Desktop/temp/CURRENT/FAI%2018%20Rosepark.htm[19/05/2011 10:41:30]
certainty that any of the residents in this corner would have survived even if the doors had been closed. However,
closing the doors on its own would have made a significant difference to their prospects.
Had the residents in the rooms in corridor 4 apart from rooms 10 and 11 had their doors closed, their deaths might have
been avoided.
"I trust that you will not advise on fire precautions in care homes until you do," ????????????? What's this about? "but, to answer your question, no, the fire did not start in a bedroom," Thank you.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline jokar

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Re: Latest RRFSO determination outcome
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2011, 05:16:31 PM »
As you quite rightly state Mr Todd, a scottish disaster prolonged for the relatives because no fatal accident investigation was completed early enough and two attempts to prosecute ended in failure.  However, we live and learn and educate ourselves and allow others to educate us on a daily basis and as stated by you before your special scottish education puts us english to shame. 

Offline colin todd

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Re: Latest RRFSO determination outcome
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2011, 05:49:14 PM »
What did you not understand , nearly.

Jokar, Glad you have got the message at least.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline jokar

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Re: Latest RRFSO determination outcome
« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2011, 06:28:14 PM »
Only subliminally.

Offline stevew

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Re: Latest RRFSO determination outcome
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2011, 08:33:41 PM »


What a waste of time and effort.  Who on earth was advising the responsible person.

I support the principal of the determination process however the argument used by the responsible person was in my opinion, dangerous.            Any other decision would have been taking standards in such premises back thirty years.
If I remember correctly it was acceptable in the 1982 Guide to Fire Safety Standards in Existing Care Premises.  However the only acceptable circumstances was, I believe bedroom doors in a protected area.
 
How common is this situation?  Carried out an audit of two care homes recently where the owner had ignored a previous recommendation to fit
sc devices on bedroom doors.  I contacted the two fire authority inspectors who had recently audited the properties and made no comment on the doors.  I was adivsed that the authority was, and I quote 'soon to make a policy decision based upon the findings of a fire in a care home in Scotland'.   

Still have a long way to go for consistency.

Steve

 

Offline colin todd

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Re: Latest RRFSO determination outcome
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2011, 11:25:00 PM »
Zone models were involved Steven, one assumes that the RP used a fire consultant.  An odd case in all respects.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline AnthonyB

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Re: Latest RRFSO determination outcome
« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2011, 11:22:25 PM »
It's still being resisted. Although HTM 84 (NI) is 16 years old, written for completely different legislation, has been superseded by guidance requiring SC to doors and that technology has improved, there are E&W care homes wishing to avoid the cost of retrofitting swing frees.

An argument proposed by some is that as all elements of HTM84 (NI) were implemented in their premises rather than the pick and choose in the determination, then they are OK.

It's not over yet!

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Offline colin todd

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Re: Latest RRFSO determination outcome
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2011, 09:45:08 PM »
Tony, I think you will find it is largely over, particularly in view of the Rosepark Determination. And, in my experience, they like the doors to be self-closing in NI>
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates