Risk Assessment Format

[Brian Catton]

I was at a seminar recently where one of the speakers staded that he understands the ODPM are currently working on their own RA format. Does anyone know if this is true? I sincerely hope not as I think that PAS 79 is OK. Apart from that CFOA were one of the bodies involved in the production of PAS 79. Has CFOA accepted PAS 79 as an acceptable suitable and sufficient standard?

[colin todd]

They will not, i think, be giving a prescriptive format but merely a version of the steps one has to go through in order to carry out a RA. I believe that this involves advice to employers to look for sources of oxygen and other such practical help!!!! We are buying oxygen level meters as these will now be necessary to carry out an RA!!!!

[Brian Catton]

Thank you Colin. I have a Canary in a cage.Will that be suitable and sufficient enough to count as an O2 meter or just CO.If so I will market it. Do you want a part copyright? The main drawback (or marketing advantage) is that you can only use it once. Seriously though, is it correct about the new version?

[colin todd]

The drafts do contain a set of steps, but as I keep trying endlessly to explain to people like dear ole Phillip, a set of steps is not a prescriptive method; it is merely a framework with which lots of different methods can comply. When the guidance is made public, we will begin teaching the steps, as an alternative set of steps to those in PAs 79,  in the many courses we are doing for fire and rescue authorities on FRA, but it is unlikely to bring anything new to the table, simply because there is nothing new to learn or should not be. If there is something fundamentally new to learn for officers, what the heck have they been taught at Moreton for the last N years. (Answers on a postcard. Better still on waste paper.) Alas, some wish (for reasons that vary) to make FRA into a new pseudo science imported from America or somewhere like that, complete with smoke, mirrors and bull****, when it is simply what you, Brian, could have  doneand probably did do since the first world war or thereabouts.

[PhilB]

Who are the we...... .the people who will be doing the teaching .... When the guidance is made public Colin?

Why are fire authorities spending lots of money which goes to Mrs Colin to learn about only one methodology?

It may be an adequate RA course for fire consultants wanting to earn a few quid but what use to inspecting officers? If FSOs come across a method that doesn't fit in with PAS 79 what will they do???...perhaps they should attend a different course!

They've been taught quite a lot at Moreton Colin, by some excellent instructors I might add,    ...including what constitutes a suitable & sufficient risk assessment...maybe some may be able to find deficiencies with certain methods, but only the courts can make that decision. The waste paper comment was cheap, unlike your courses!

I presume your referring to BFPM...better known as 'The Method' when you speak of psuedo science imported from America.....I can find fault with that methodology as well but it is very good in some ways as is PAS 79. However a good RA course would never focus entirely  on one methodology...what would be the point, or use to enforcing authorities?

No far better for them is to attend a course that expains the basic principles of Fire RA and then looks at various ways to carry out a suitable and sufficient assessment that would stand up to legal scrutiny.
The situation will improve when professional bodies such as the IFE recognise that some other competent people and suitable methods are out there.

[colin todd]

Oh Phillip, Phillip, what an awful wee man you are. Questions questions, the ever questioning youth. As always, I will try to sort out your questions.
1. We are the practitioners, who actually do the FRAs, not merely talk about them in theoreticals.
2. The course has been delivered to representatives of around 40% of Uk fire brigades and is on the curriculum at the Scottish Fire Services College. Many brigades who have taken it have asked for repeats. Correct that. nearly all brigades that have taken it have asked for repeats. One SFSO, who is one of the brightest in the country, has described it as a ''smart pill that is just what I/os need. Now, Phillip, I know your views on SFSOs, but are they ALL wrong?
3. It does not teach PAS 79. In fact, PAS 79 was based on the course notes, as the course has been running before PAS 79 was being illicitly copied in its draft form at a well known training college.
4. I keep telling you, but each time you get it wrong I will repeat it at the risk of boring people, that PAS 79 allows I/Os to assess ANY method--it is a framework not a prescriptive method.
5. FRS's spend money (most of which goes to the Misses and master Colin not the Mrs Colin) beacuse firstly it is a lot cheaper than Moreton and secondly it does not teach one method, nor does it have the arrogance to call it ''THE' method, the use of the definite article implying there are no others when I was taught English at school!!
6. The waste paper comment was not cheap it was free, unlike your courses. In contrast, we permit any brigade that is seriously interested in the course to send a representative on a course FREE for evaluation pruposes. It is by this means that the course has spread to more and more brigades.
7. I think most brigades are still asking what the point of THE Method is.
8. The IFE will approve any course that is suitable. But they do not go out inviting specific course providers to apply.

Hope this helps, but do revert if you need any other questions answered as there is no such thing as bad publicity.

[PhilB]

Thanks for clearing that up Colin. So I am in that we as well then....who are those who merely talk about them???

Only 40% of UK FRS and is that all the personell or just one or two delegates? I know some brigades send some to your courses and some to other establishments.

Calm down dear....as I have said PAS79 does have some good points but I believe it has some poor points, my opinion I'm afraid. Not everyone will be a signed up member of your fan club.


I do think you are confussing the issue by talking about The Method. Interesting as that course may be there are other Fire RA courses available attended by most FRS. Most send further delegates following positive feedback.

I have spoken to many people obviously who have atended your course and courses at Moreton their feedback is useful.

I do understand that PAS79 is a framework...but I beleive there may be equal or even better frameworks out there.

I think a few more courses will be approved by IFE in the near future and I believe that may be useful for some people.

Finally PAS79 was never illicitly copied at any establishment that I have worked at. It was discussed because it was out there in the scarey real world and some I/os were coming across assessments that had used that framework. Many methods & frameworks were discussed. Copies were however not available or distributed. I was sent an illicit copy by a member of a very large brigade, I obviously destroyed it immediately!....so there were many who had sight of it in it's draft form but not supplied by the persons whom you wrongly accuse.

[colin todd]

Well, we probably disagree again on a number of the above points, but hey what's new.