Author Topic: "Better regulation scheme" consultation- fire safety  (Read 17782 times)

Offline kurnal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
    • http://www.peakland-fire-safety.co.uk
"Better regulation scheme" consultation- fire safety
« on: September 02, 2011, 07:05:00 AM »
In the wake of the cuts the vultures are circling round the Fire Safety Order to cream off what they can to survive.

http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/better-regulation/docs/f/11-985-future-local-better-regulation-office-consultation.pdf

Am I alone in thinking that this looks like a desperate attempt to create a new empire for an authority which is otherwise likely to be wound up?

The “Local Better Regulation Office” has been recommended for closure and to justify their continued existence they are trying to claim the FSO as their own. I may be wrong. If you would like to respond to the consultation, the closing date is 9th September.

Do we really need yet another tier of enforcement?   Why not just fix what is percieved to be wrong rather than setting up yet further levels of confusion?
« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 07:11:29 AM by kurnal »

Offline Davo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1144
Re: "Better regulation scheme" consultation- fire safety
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2011, 11:01:59 AM »
Hi Prof

Yes, it seems a long process and will tie local FRS hands somewhat.

Whilst it is appropriate for some of the legislation, it is not suitable for Fire. I can see it working for H & S where there is a wealth of info and cases stated


davo

Offline Tom Sutton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2287
Re: "Better regulation scheme" consultation- fire safety
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2011, 11:12:21 AM »
Kurnal I don't see it that way, to me it appears one department is being closed and absorbed into another. As for the FSO and other legislation, it is proposed the enforcement will be subject to the Primary Authority Scheme (PAS).

As for PAS it seems a company that operates over a number of local authority boundaries can choose one and the others have to follow their advice and methods of enforcement. How this would apply to FRS and consequently the FSO I need it explained in words of one syllable. However I haven't given up yet I shall persevere.
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline CivvyFSO

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1583
Re: "Better regulation scheme" consultation- fire safety
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2011, 12:51:33 PM »
I fully agree.

The removal of the RRFSO and the Licensing Act from the Primary Authority Scheme has already been addressed in a consultation, and the decision has already been made for very good reasons. Local risks require local control.

Offline colin todd

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3473
  • Civilianize enforcement -you know it makes sense.
    • http://www.cstodd.co.uk
Re: "Better regulation scheme" consultation- fire safety
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2011, 03:26:45 AM »
There were no good reasons to exclude it first time round-just politics and self protection by the F&RS.  The various FRS that haver chosen to ignore LAPS agreements have blown it for themselves and a Primary Authority Scheme (I like the term PAS) is the answer. The proposal should receive support and we will provide evidence of FRS ignoring LAPS agreements as support in our consultation response.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline kurnal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
    • http://www.peakland-fire-safety.co.uk
Re: "Better regulation scheme" consultation- fire safety
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2011, 02:34:27 PM »
I am not sure why Colin suggests that we should all welcome it and see it as a Good Thing.
Many fire authorities embraced lead partnership schemes in the past.

http://library.rbfrs.co.uk/TROVEPROGS/TroveAMDocument.aspx?/IS=568936627/LI=Document/ID=40/OS=1/DI=6008/DS=6008/LO=0/XD=6283/RW=1600/RH=1200/CD=32/TC=1/VD=DocLib/WV=7/ST=ac/AC=AP/FI=111/AM=Mozilla/HU=EmptyURL

There was also the LANTAC agreements.

Were they a success?

I suppose such a scheme could be a factor in say enabling  a retail chain to adopt their own colour scheme for exit signage because they only have to persuade a single authority to accept it?

I wonder how staff will  be recruited and who will  train the staff of the PAS in the enforcement of fire safety , and how they will ensure standards consistent with the generality of the local fire brigades to avoid a two tier standard of enforcement. Does it just mean the big boys can buy the favour of a lead partner the rest are cast to their fate as determined by their local fire service.

When when I read the consultation document and see some the lobby groups in favour of such schemes it automatically makes me nervous because I suspect that politics and prejudice may well take precedence in their view rather than for example good standards of fire safety within their chain.

Yes it may take emotion and local politics / community opinion  out of decisions especially if the lead authority is remote  from the community where any digression takes place but that can be a bad thing as well as good. What is it Mr Cameron keeps banging on about? The importance of Localism isnt it? Does not this fly in the face of all that and pander to the interests of big business?

If we go down this path too far it will be planning next and a Mesco supermarket in every village.

Puts head below parapet and awaits the inevitable missiles from the direction of Surrey.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2011, 06:06:30 PM by kurnal »

Offline colin todd

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3473
  • Civilianize enforcement -you know it makes sense.
    • http://www.cstodd.co.uk
Re: "Better regulation scheme" consultation- fire safety
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2011, 08:12:30 PM »
Kurnal, you need to get out more and witness the diametrically opposed requirements of different EAs experienced by large groups. Then you will understand.   
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline kurnal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
    • http://www.peakland-fire-safety.co.uk
Re: "Better regulation scheme" consultation- fire safety
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2011, 07:39:33 AM »
I am unlikely to to witness this by getting out more Colin. I am out a great deal as it is and see first hand for myself the problems on the ground and cannot see how setting up another large unwieldy and remote tier of enforcement will help improve or even maintain standards of fire safety in the shops pubs and warehouses of the UK.

 I speak to local managers at the sharp end every day,  I see the pressures they are under in terms of space and staffing and building management overheads and the knock on consequences for basic fire precautions at the point of delivery. I know exactly how large brewery chains, large retail chains and remotely controlled convenience stores work and what the  Board demand from their local management.

Local enforcement by local fire services is difficult for business to predict and for them to control, they do not know when they may get a visit. They respond quickly to local problems and have the ability to hit the company hard. They have no vested interests other than fire safety standards within their area.

The big companies would be much happier with the fire services off their backs and instead to work with a large, remote enforcement regime that is slow to respond, will work to a pre arranged inspection program and that has its eye on National rather than local politics. In particular one that they can control, that they can have in their pocket in the same way that big business sometimes controls and influences approved building inspectors.

I would like to see proper evidence of the alleged failures and inconsistency by the fire services and then see if we can fix the machine we have before we try and invent something new. I wager half of the critics are repeating hearsay and probably quarter of the rest are frustrated because they have got away with something in one area and cant get away with the same thing somewhere else.

Refreshing to see you are supporting  the creation of a further tier of civil servants though, even if it is at the expense of the fire service.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2011, 03:20:14 PM by kurnal »

Offline Davo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1144
Re: "Better regulation scheme" consultation- fire safety
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2011, 09:23:41 AM »
Surely not, K :o

After all, we know CT only has time for one, the rest are all cr*p


davo


Remember his (allegedly) FOI request whereby he proved beyond all doubt this is the case ;D

Offline Tom Sutton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2287
Re: "Better regulation scheme" consultation- fire safety
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2011, 10:07:37 AM »
What I would like to know how PAS would work at a practical level.

There would be many PA’s the IO’s would have to liaise with when conducting audits in national companies and the additional expense this will mean. Would it not be better to have one PA the DCLG and they should get their act together, similar to how the Home Office dealt with the FPA when it was introduced and after.
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline colin todd

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3473
  • Civilianize enforcement -you know it makes sense.
    • http://www.cstodd.co.uk
Re: "Better regulation scheme" consultation- fire safety
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2011, 12:45:56 AM »
The DCLG ho ho ho h ho ho stop it Thomas you are slitting my sides, no really please ho ho ho ho ho ho.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Midland Retty

  • Guest
Re: "Better regulation scheme" consultation- fire safety
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2011, 11:19:23 AM »
Hi Tom.

What you suggest is not a bad idea, unfortunately DCLG just aren't geared for that at present, but it's not to say the couldn't be in future (if the will was there)

Laird Todd... "Ho Ho Ho" to you too - infact you already have white hair, all you need now is a brilliant white beard you would make an excellent Santa Clause. Would you be available for the local school Christmas fete - Payment will be in bottles of Talisker.

Offline Tom Sutton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2287
Re: "Better regulation scheme" consultation- fire safety
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2011, 07:50:25 PM »
I have never dealt with the DCLG but the home office wasn't much cop neither, but it isn't rocket science what was done when the FPA was introduced. The appropriate minister should knock a few heads together instead of reinventing the wheel, and come up with a similar system like the FIRE PRECAUTIONS ACT 1971 - Circular's  which should achieve similar results to the PAS.

It seems to me to be about consistency which was never going to improve with risk assessment everybody has their own opinion.
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline colin todd

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3473
  • Civilianize enforcement -you know it makes sense.
    • http://www.cstodd.co.uk
Re: "Better regulation scheme" consultation- fire safety
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2011, 09:14:28 PM »
Thomas you have not missed much. I liked the Home Office people. 

Retters, is that local to Bordersley Green , you mean?
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline kurnal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
    • http://www.peakland-fire-safety.co.uk
Re: "Better regulation scheme" consultation- fire safety
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2011, 08:11:37 AM »
Kurnal I don't see it that way, to me it appears one department is being closed and absorbed into another. As for the FSO and other legislation, it is proposed the enforcement will be subject to the Primary Authority Scheme (PAS).

As for PAS it seems a company that operates over a number of local authority boundaries can choose one and the others have to follow their advice and methods of enforcement. How this would apply to FRS and consequently the FSO I need it explained in words of one syllable. However I haven't given up yet I shall persevere.

Tom you are absolutely right and I had initially misunderstood the intention of the change. Yes it is a Primary Authority Scheme enabling large enterprises to enter into a partnership with a particular fire and rescue service to enforce fire safety across their range of properties and across political boundaries. That said I still have concerns over how it would operate, take the following paragraph as an example.

Participating businesses are able to work with their primary authority to develop an inspection plan agreeing priorities for inspection nationally. Inspections plans help other local authorities focus their local inspection resources where they will have the most impact, eliminating unnecessary checks and saving time and resource for both the business and local authorities.

How does this sit with the local fire service planning their risk management and inspection program within their IRMP, if for example a certain national chain of care homes set up a PAS with a remote fire service and for the care homes operated by them a program of 5 yearly reinspections was introduced compared to the annual need identified by the IRMP?

What would be the procedure in a national nightclub chain if someone comlains about a locked fire exit door or if the local brigade finds serious breaches of fire safety legislation when attending a fire? Would their hands be tieds or would they still be able to respond within their own premises in a dynamic manner?
Will we have dual standards?