Dorgards and surface mounted intumescent seals

[longjohn]

Can anyone assist? Issue No 1
A Care Home which is well managed has installed Dorgards to its protected routes, they are tested, checked and maintained, in addition the doors are closed at night as part of staff procedures, during the day staff are trained to close doors as part of the fire procedure.
Issue No2
They have done some fire door upgrading and used Envirograf surface mounted I/S and smoke seals.
The building is a listed building and retro fitting mag catches etc may be difficult not to mention costly, at some time in the future they will consider radio linked releases when budgetary means permit.
An Arsy FO has told them they cannot have Dorgards on stairwells and seals MUST be the routed types and if they don't do it he could close them down (sure he can, I assume he will put all the residents up at home!).
I didn't think these FO's still existed and as the fire risk assessment has 'assessed the risk' can he say or do this. Would welcome Mr T to comment on this one as well as anyone else out there!   

[Tom W]

Hello

I work for Fireco Ltd the company that manufacture Dorgards.

The use of fire door retainers comes down to a risk assessed approach and if you have conducted a suitable and sufficient risk assessment and determined that Dorgard would be a good sollution to the dangerous practice of door wedging, I see no reason as to why it would not be appropriate to install Dorgard to these doors. Dorgard complies with BSEN1155 and rated category B of BS7273-4. There is plenty of guidance out there but it is just that, guidance.

Has the property been issued an enforcement notice or is this just a notice of deficiency? It would be interesting to note what the problem with the siting of these devices are and if the FO mentioned BS7273-4.

He/She is entitled to give you an opinion on something that is against the guidance but I suggest by writing back and informing him (or her) of the risk assessment and the precuations they have on site. Ensure they are tested weekely and records are available and there should be no problem.

If you would like any more info please feel free to contact me @ Fireco towers - services@firecoltd.com ask for Tom.

[nearlythere]

Can anyone assist? Issue No 1
A Care Home which is well managed has installed Dorgards to its protected routes, they are tested, checked and maintained, in addition the doors are closed at night as part of staff procedures, during the day staff are trained to close doors as part of the fire procedure.
Issue No2
They have done some fire door upgrading and used Envirograf surface mounted I/S and smoke seals.
The building is a listed building and retro fitting mag catches etc may be difficult not to mention costly, at some time in the future they will consider radio linked releases when budgetary means permit.
An Arsy FO has told them they cannot have Dorgards on stairwells and seals MUST be the routed types and if they don't do it he could close them down (sure he can, I assume he will put all the residents up at home!).
I didn't think these FO's still existed and as the fire risk assessment has 'assessed the risk' can he say or do this. Would welcome Mr T to comment on this one as well as anyone else out there!   

Has your client been formally advised that the Dorgards and exposed seals are not suitable? If yes for what reason are they considered unsuitable?

[kurnal]

Your fire risk assessment, to be considered suitable and sufficient should be explicit and compare your arrangements with best practice guidelines eg BS 7273 part 4 in respect of the use of dorgards on the staircase in a care home. This will recommend a Category A device in this location. Your risk assessment would then set out additional risk control measures in place and other circumstances such as the configuration of the fire alarm system or staff in the visinity or whatever  that make the Category B device acceptable in this situation. If the risk assessment sets out this information then the fire officer then has full information on which to base his judgement. In the absence of such information he will revert to the benchmark standard, ie a Cat A device on the staircase.

Similarly in respect of the door seals, obtain and print out a copy of the BS476 test certificate showing their performance on doors of similar construction, fit and condition as yours. The suppliers of the seals will have a library of such certificates to send you- but make sure the door construction on the certificate matches your doors. As it is a heritage building you may need to obtain a copy of the document IFC produced for English Heritage some years ago which included documented tests on a range of doors of different types of construction.

[colin todd]

Why do you make everything so complicated Big Al.  Look its quite simple---Not a good idea to use Dorgards on staircase doors in a care home---fine for other doors and sometimes I hate to say even a good idea to use them (sometimes!).

Stick on intumescents are a poor solution for this application, and the right thing to do is rout the door.

I am with the red lorry driver on this occasion.

[kurnal]

Why do you make everything so complicated Big Al.  

Because I like to try my best to help people out, to educate rather than instruct and  hopefully to push them in the right direction in a tactful way (rather than run em through with me claymore).  

[Tom W]

Now although guidance suggest that Dorgards shouldn't be used on doors in stairwells in care homes this does not mean its not still a suitable precuation.

As we see the doors are closed at night (thanks to a handy night time release) they are tested regularly and staff are trained. We also know that Dorgard has not ever failed in the event of fire. So the statistics suggest that it is not as higher risk as people may think.

Colin I remember you telling me about the amount of people worrying about fire deaths in hotel bedrooms when statistics suggests it is very rare. So I know you like the common sense approach.

The decision is up to the RP with advice taken from the British Standard and the findings of a suitable and sufficient Fire Risk Assessment.

Long John if you would like to upgrade the Dorgards to category A (Dorgard radio units) I will happily arrange a very special deal for you.

We like happy customers.

I would like to know how the FO in question worded their complaint and it what guise though.

[Fishy]

Properly spec'd & installed surface-mounted seals are no less effective than those installed in a groove.  They can be a maintenance headache, though, especially if combined with smoke seals.  Should be regularly inspected to ensure that they remain well-adhered and that no-one has decided to pick bits out of them!

[jayjay]

With regards to the surface mounted seals I am increasingly coming across "bat wing" smoke seals from Lorient.

Many of these are being installed in new builds and seem quite effective and will probably last longer than the usual straight rubber blade type seals. They are still dependant on door to frame gap but as there is actully two seals that touch two surface of the door they appera to be quite effective.

Google "Lorient Bat Wing Smoke seals" and see examples and test certificates. I emailed the company and they have sent a pack of samples, fitting guides and test data.

[xwmfs]

Pilet;

 I would rather see a door holding device in place rather that a wedge
I work for a large University that would prefer install door holding devices (Dorgard)
but the maintenance regime is prohibitive (daily, weekly, monthly, 6 monthly, yearly checks)
we have 14000 fire doors maintenance costs to test as per your instructions make the device too expensive

[Auntie LIn]

Just as a warning note firstly on fire seals.   Yes, maintenance is everything and whatever you use, be it Wilko best or John Lewis splendiferous either or both could fail if not properly checked and maintained.
Secondly on Dorgards (although I realise it's not an issue in this case) - beware the fire officer who comes in to check doors and condemns solid, closed, doors which were well fitting and without fire seals but misses completely that the Dorgard has been fitted too close to the leading edge of doors onto a stairwell, thus preventing the door from closing in case of fire.
Would be nice if fire officers knew what to look for - and looked!

[jokar]

Not their job, they are enforcers.  It is the role of the Responsible Person to understand the fire safety strategy in the premises through the FRA.  The enforcers audit may not cover all of the doors or protected routes.

[Tom W]

Pilet;

 I would rather see a door holding device in place rather that a wedge
I work for a large University that would prefer install door holding devices (Dorgard)
but the maintenance regime is prohibitive (daily, weekly, monthly, 6 monthly, yearly checks)
we have 14000 fire doors maintenance costs to test as per your instructions make the device too expensive

Dorgard self tests it self more than you think. You should give us a call and talk through what you would like. Dorgards should be tested once a week but thats in conjunction with your bell test so that shouldn't add to any inspection regime also the night time release is handy for an additional automatic daily test. We have a cat A "dorgard" which takes all input from your CIE rather than stand alone. That would solve your issue of maintenance.

[nearlythere]

Secondly on Dorgards (although I realise it's not an issue in this case) - beware the fire officer who comes in to check doors and condemns solid, closed, doors which were well fitting and without fire seals.......

Interesting point you make here Auntie and I agree with your comments about a well fitting door and seals, one being as good as the other in my mind.
However, I am reminded of a report of a successful prosecution posted here where one reason for an offence was the failure to provide smoke seals on doors and not that they should be capable of withstanding the passage of smoke. Two different things entirely.