Poll

what fire risk register would you consider joining

FRACS
5 (18.5%)
BAFE SP205
3 (11.1%)
IFE
12 (44.4%)
IFPO
1 (3.7%)
none at all
6 (22.2%)
IFSM / NFRAR
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 25

Author Topic: Register of Fire Risk Assessors & Auditors  (Read 42402 times)

Offline alfi

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Register of Fire Risk Assessors & Auditors
« on: February 03, 2012, 08:44:15 AM »
Gents

I'm currently on the IFSM fire risk assessors register which is in the process of  moving to the warrington scheme before it closes next year. I'm of course happy to go through the process having completed various qualifications in Fire safety management and been completeing FRA for numerous years. My question is how many of you guys are considering this?, is the IFE register going to go the same way?, I don't want to go through a protracted process to find its not really recognised in the big scheme of things. i have my formal qualifications and experience, and insurance so in the eyes of the law I can prove my competance should it called into question!, it won't really affect my work as all my cleints i have been working with for many years and all know my ability. So why should i go down this route,?. shall i join the IFE register if that isn't going to close?, what are you guys thinking of doing or done

cheers

Alfi

Offline Golden

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Re: Register of Fire Risk Assessors & Auditors
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2012, 10:12:13 AM »
Hi Alfi, I'm not on any registers yet but have similar qualifications/insurance as yourself. For business purposes I intend to join both the IFE and the Warrington schemes which I believe will add some substance to my formal qualifications. I'm also interested to hear what others think - am I right in thinking this will help my business expand or am I wasting my time/money?

Offline kurnal

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Re: Register of Fire Risk Assessors & Auditors
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2012, 10:46:04 AM »
I am on the FIA register of fire risk assessment companies and because the FIA currently requires all fire risk assessors used by member companies to be on one of the four registers- FRACS, IFE, IFSM or IFPO we picked the IFSM.

It all depends why you want to enrol. If it is to generate new business there is no doubt that the IFE is streets ahead of the rest as most fire brigades recommend that one to RPs.

If like me you simply wish to register to have some credible verification of your competence then I have no doubt that the FRACS scheme is the best and most diligent. But its also the most expensive - and there is almost no publicity of it outside the industry.

I would have chosen the IFE but friends report that the scheme is run on a shoestring by volunteers and registration takes forever. One friend has been waiting 9 months for his application to be considered. Apparently they now are interviewing every candidate as well- previously it was only those of whom they were unsure from the application. This is delaying things even more.

So I went for the IFSM to meet the FIA requirements. It was a reasonably quick and cheap process at the time, though this route is now closed. On the other hand as a marketing tool it really is a total waste of time the register is very poorly presented on the website from an RPs point of view- no geographical indications, just a list of names. It has never yet generated a single business enquiry.

The FIA list has generated one job in two years.

Friends tell me the IFE register generates a great deal of work.

From my company's point of view I dont need new leads, my order book so far has always overflowing from client recommendations. So I will stick with the FIA and as BAFE SP205 comes on  line later this year will probably go along that route.  If I wish to remain on the IFSM register then I will also have to register through the FRACS scheme due to their new partnership. The IFSM say that they have negotiated special rates  for members but so foar nobody at IFSM has been able to tell me what these are.

The new competency standard has prompted a change to the FRACS scheme, I have an open mind on whether to continue on the IFSM register and like most others I am just watching and waiting.

In my opinion the Authorities and Govt want a kick up the backside. All the good work on improving standards in the Industry, the outstanding work done by the competency council will count for nothing unless it is driven from the top, it requires fire officers to stop pushing just the IFE register and all fire safety publicity should push the wider issue of competence. Otherwise the cowboys will continue and the excellent FRACS scheme and SP205 will founder.

Offline alfi

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Re: Register of Fire Risk Assessors & Auditors
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2012, 11:20:15 AM »
Thanks Kurnal, thats an excellent explanation. I also don't need to generate new work and i'm currently on the IFSM list, just don't want to go through a long winded process taking time off work to attend interviews etc,  and find it isn't being pushed by the govenment such as they do with "gas safe" register etc. I'll keep an eye on things and make a judgement call in the future.Be good to hear of anyone who has gone through the FRACS process, how they found it etc

Offline William 29

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Re: Register of Fire Risk Assessors & Auditors
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2012, 03:26:36 PM »
I agree with the majority of what has been said and can see the issue from Kurnal’s angle.  It really depends on your outlook and what volume and type of FRA work you are looking for.  If you are an individual assessor it may be that with the right recognised qualifications and experience you will get work without being on any register or being 3rd party accredited.  I don’t think that will be the same for FRA companies (large or small).  My understanding is that there is a Fire Risk Assessors Competency document that is going to be sent or made known to key businesses and stakeholders.  I feel a time will come when SME’s, councils, housing associations, care home providers, schools etc will specify that anyone conducting FRAs on their behalf must be accredited with FRACS, BAFE or similar to a UKAS standard.  To be honest when the Competency Scheme goes public they would be daft not too, unless they want a cheap FRA.
  
On a personal note I resigned from the fire service after 17 years to run my fire consultancy business full time so we really need these types of clients with several properties.  I am in the process of putting my company through the FRACS company scheme where any of my assessors that go through the process will also be FRACS accredited.  The main advantage here is that once we have the accreditation each FRA that we produce is issued with a certificate stating the FRA has been conducted by assessors that has been 3rd party accredited.  Another bonus is that if one of these FRAs is challenged by a fire officer, Warrington Certification (FRACS) will take up the case and find out why an FRA by a 3rd party accredited consultant has conducted an assessment that is not suitable and sufficient in the Fire Authority’s view.

As far as cost go I think they are reasonable, we gained a 40% discount for being members of the FIA and IFSM.  As far as a Company is concerned I see no alternative other than 3rd party accreditation.  Time will tell though.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 03:28:08 PM by William 29 »

Offline kurnal

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Re: Register of Fire Risk Assessors & Auditors
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2012, 09:32:00 AM »
My understanding is that there is a Fire Risk Assessors Competency document that is going to be sent or made known to key businesses and stakeholders.  I feel a time will come when SME’s, councils, housing associations, care home providers, schools etc will specify that anyone conducting FRAs on their behalf must be accredited with FRACS, BAFE or similar to a UKAS standard.  To be honest when the Competency Scheme goes public they would be daft not too, unless they want a cheap FRA.....................
  

  Another bonus is that if one of these FRAs is challenged by a fire officer, Warrington Certification (FRACS) will take up the case and find out why an FRA by a 3rd party accredited consultant has conducted an assessment that is not suitable and sufficient in the Fire Authoritys view.......

As far as cost go I think they are reasonable, we gained a 40% discount for being members of the FIA and IFSM.  As far as a Company is concerned I see no alternative other than 3rd party accreditation.  Time will tell though....................


I fully agree with your aims William they fully mirror mine.  But I am sorry to say I am more cynical than you though, I fear the schemes may not drive the cowboys out of the Industry because the Govt has been absolutely clear from the outset that accreditation will NEVER be mandatory. I wish they would take a stronger line. I dont think the Govt are likely to find any money to promote the schemes either and fire brigades  (fire officers on the ground) will continue to push just the IFE register. It takes years to push a culture change through the fire service as I am sure you will recall.

I am not sure that I would want Warrington "taking up the case". This is not in any of the literature I have seen and I think it could be a bad thing. They are a commercial company rather than a national institution and after all if we get it wrong there is a legal  enforcement framework for any failure. I do support a complaints and mediation procedure, this is essential for any accreditation scheme. I fear that the process of fire risk assessment is fairly subjective and I am not yet convinced that the accreditation bodies could be be relied on to take other than a prescriptive view. If their HQ team incorporates mainly time served experienced risk assessors and not specialists within narrow disciplines of the fire sector I might feel more confident of this. But I fear code hugging may be the outcome.

Dont forget your costs were a loss leading special offer. If you do some maths on the numbers of man hours put into the FRACS assessment system and what would be a reasonable commercial hourly rate I think it is likely that prices will rise considerably in the future.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2012, 11:59:49 AM by kurnal »

Eli

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Re: Register of Fire Risk Assessors & Auditors
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2012, 02:05:23 PM »
Kurnal

Warrington will only get involved if there is a formal complaint made by a client of a certificated assessor or company; as you correctly say it is complaint/mediation, but there is a legal requirement to certification too i.e. if it did end up in court Warrington could be called to explain themselves and the certification process. i.e. how do we know Kurnal is indeed competent.

Those certificated by Warrington will be assessed against the industry standard through an accredited competent person’s scheme; which is as assured as you can get. (Through a third party scheme and that doesn’t mean that others without it are not)

The costs are set at a level that reflects a professional approach, all the other registers rely on free peer review, hence the delay in being assessed and the reduced cost. The true cost to be on the IFE register (if you had to pay) would be approximately 3 times that of the FRACS scheme, if not more.

To accompany the new competence standard there is an RP guidance document which (in its last draft form) listed UKAS accredited schemes as the first thing an RP should look for to assure competence. Secondly the professional registers could give an indication of competence and finally if the assessor has none of the above the RP should complete a due diligence process. (But they often don’t) This document when finished will be publicised by all stakeholders on the council, who include CLG and CFOA plus the IFE (Wait and see). This should mean that fire officers no longer just signpost the IFE listing.

I actually did a survey of all FRS service websites in the UK and only 5 list any schemes in their advice to businesses, 4 solely mentioned the IFE and one mentioned 3 of the current listings. Therefore they must be making a verbal recommendation, which is not based on anything but a knowledge that the IFE register exists. This should now change and hopefully quickly.

In Scotland all the registers are listed, which I think is a good thing but a strong caveat should have been included i.e. ‘Should you intend to rely on any of these registers as proof of competence you should be satisfied that the assessment process is indeed robust enough to assure competence’. 

Sadly fire risk assessors’ schemes do vary massively but people don’t see that; they just see the end cost and say, “I can get that cheaper elsewhere”. Surely that’s the exact same thing the RP says when finding a risk assessor. Isn’t that what we are fighting; the ‘slap dash, quick tick, cheap as chips cowboy!’

I don’t believe the BAFE scheme in its current format goes far enough to assure the competence of the fire risk assessors a company employs. It certainly doesn’t compare them against the competence standard (in the last version I saw and discussed with the BAFE coordinator) However people won’t care as long as the UKAS badge is there. I do think sometimes of setting up the ‘CCCC’ (Cost Cutting Certification Company) it would only cost you £200 for the 4C rubber stamp of competence. 

I do hope that LPCB or IFCC or another accredited certification body offer a competitive scheme to FRACS; as you and others say, you are just waiting to see what develops and you would like some competition. Which I fully understand and appreciate; but just make sure the competition is like for like and gives you and your clients the same assurances as the FRACS scheme.

I personally would wait to see what happens if I was an assessor in today’s market; who needs certification anyway, the good the bad and the ugly fire risk assessors out there are all busy. Possibly the assessor in Nottingham will look for certification once he has finished his prison term. I dare say he would get on to 2 of the existing registers if he tried. 

Offline alfi

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Re: Register of Fire Risk Assessors & Auditors
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2012, 08:10:51 PM »
Hi Eli

Thanks for your input,  I think this just shows how confused us assessors are about all these schemes, I'd like to know what the current pass rate is for the Warrington scheme, I must admit after kurnal mentioned it the BAFE scheme seems pretty good. Remember for us guys who have qualifications and experience it is just about belonging to a scheme, it probably won't improve our workload, and to be honest I know some people who are great when quoting txt and law but put them on site  and ask them to use some common sense you'll find them struggling.

I would like to hear other opinions gents, I will join some new scheme when the IFSM discontinues but currently I don't see many running to join them

Offline William 29

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Re: Register of Fire Risk Assessors & Auditors
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2012, 09:31:38 PM »
Hi Eli

..................... Remember for us guys who have qualifications and experience it is just about belonging to a scheme, it probably won't improve our workload, .......................


I think this is a dangerous comment if it is just about "belonging to a register" then I think you have missed the point entirely?  As MD of a fire consultancy practice I want to make sure my assessors (myself included) undergo as rigorous a competency based assessment as possible, pass or fail.  The FRACS scheme assesses competency against the recent document issued by the Fire Risk Assessment Competency Council, which provides a syllabus for assessors to work to and this forms the basis of the written exam, interview and desk top exercise.  Also a percentage of my assessors will undergo an on-site building assessment, our clients are contacted, our company’s procedures and documentation including our FRA format are scrutinised, etc. etc.  

To be honest I think the FRACS scheme scares a few assessors out there.  For years we have been used to the Fire Service College and Fire Service internal exam system where we all knew what was coming up on the day of “assessment” to be off for the early Friday finish to get home! (My apologies to the non fire service assessors out there as that will mean very little!)

Offline Tom W

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Re: Register of Fire Risk Assessors & Auditors
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2012, 09:38:50 AM »
I put two of the very first assessors through the fracs scheme and promptly with drew after the minimum term.

It is expensive, I never got any work from it nor did I ever get asked by a client for it. Warrington are spending a lot of money publicising this scheme but its all to you guys the risk assessors. Not your clients.

I am also not happy about the same company having a risk assessment division in the same building.

It is not and I doubt it ever will be law to have a third party accreditation. I assess and track competency of my team more thoroughly than any scheme ever can and my clients will vouch for quality. So why do I need to give warrington any money?

That being said I am not against the idea of 3rd party but knowing some of the questions that are asked in the exam I would say it is a fire engineers thing not a normal risk assessment. I am sorry I am not completely sure what happens in the IFSM scheme so cannot comment but the IFE's coupled with the FIA seems a great way to go if you want to go down that route.



« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 09:43:29 AM by Piglet »

Offline nearlythere

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Re: Register of Fire Risk Assessors & Auditors
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2012, 10:25:33 AM »
I put two of the very first assessors through the fracs scheme and promptly with drew them after the minimum term.

It is expensive, I never got any work from it nor did I ever get asked by a client for it. Warrington are spending a lot of money publicising this scheme but its all to you guys the risk assessors. Not your clients.

I am also not happy about the same company having a risk assessment division in the same building.

It is not and I doubt it ever will be law to have a third party accreditation. I assess and track competency of my team more thoroughly than any scheme ever can and my clients will vouch for quality. So why do I need to give warrington any money?

That being said I am not against the idea of 3rd party but knowing some of the questions that are asked in the exam I would say it is a fire engineers thing not a normal risk assessment. I am sorry I am not completely sure what happens in the IFSM scheme so cannot comment but the IFE's coupled with the FIA seems a great way to go if you want to go down that route.
The only thing I have ever been asked, and only once about a week ago, is for a copy of my professional and public liability certs.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Eli

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Re: Register of Fire Risk Assessors & Auditors
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2012, 03:22:26 PM »
Piglet.

As I know personally one of the fire risk assessors you put through and still keep in touch with him, I do find your first remark about removing them from the register as disrespectful!

Please amend and make it accurate or I will enlighten the forum members as to the accurate version.

On a separate matter I heard from the same assessor that a huge contract was secured on the back of the FRACS certification, mainly because the IFE would have taken an age to get, as it still does.

As for cost please do see my previous post re the true cost of the IFE scheme. The cost reflects the time effort and investment made to secure UKAS accreditation and deliver a professional service, I am sure you will appreciate that fact. Anyone who complains about the cost of your closers would get the similar answer.

I genuinely don’t know what your issue is regarding Exova having risk assessors if there is a problem why haven’t UKAS picked it up during the audit of WCL? Why not write a letter of complaint to UKAS?

The scheme has come along way since the first assessment went through and as you will have read in the fire press FRACS now uses the industry standard as a bench mark. I am sure all the assessors you use have all the competences identified in the competence standard. “Who says so”?  Piglet! But doesn’t Piglet employ them? “Yes”. “Well that’s OK then”

Lets all use Piglets method of ensuring competence as a new national standard for fire risk assessment companies. Tell Bafe to knock it on the head get the FIA to sign up to Piglets method.

Piglet I appreciate you have a massive downer on FRACS and to be honest I can’t see why, but that is your choice and what ever I or others may say won’t change your mind. 

Your experience however negative is certainly not that of others who have been through the scheme according to what I have read in the fire press.


Offline Tom W

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Re: Register of Fire Risk Assessors & Auditors
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2012, 03:48:36 PM »
Piglet.

As I know personally one of the fire risk assessors you put through and still keep in touch with him, I do find your first remark about removing them from the register as disrespectful!

Please amend and make it accurate or I will enlighten the forum members as to the accurate version.

On a separate matter I heard from the same assessor that a huge contract was secured on the back of the FRACS certification, mainly because the IFE would have taken an age to get, as it still does.

As for cost please do see my previous post re the true cost of the IFE scheme. The cost reflects the time effort and investment made to secure UKAS accreditation and deliver a professional service, I am sure you will appreciate that fact. Anyone who complains about the cost of your closers would get the similar answer.

I genuinely don’t know what your issue is regarding Exova having risk assessors if there is a problem why haven’t UKAS picked it up during the audit of WCL? Why not write a letter of complaint to UKAS?

The scheme has come along way since the first assessment went through and as you will have read in the fire press FRACS now uses the industry standard as a bench mark. I am sure all the assessors you use have all the competences identified in the competence standard. “Who says so”?  Piglet! But doesn’t Piglet employ them? “Yes”. “Well that’s OK then”

Lets all use Piglets method of ensuring competence as a new national standard for fire risk assessment companies. Tell Bafe to knock it on the head get the FIA to sign up to Piglets method.

Piglet I appreciate you have a massive downer on FRACS and to be honest I can’t see why, but that is your choice and what ever I or others may say won’t change your mind. 

Your experience however negative is certainly not that of others who have been through the scheme according to what I have read in the fire press.


I don't think its disrespectful. I paid for him to go through, he went through, I gave it a year, thought it was pointless so didn't pay again. I would welcome a more accurate version?

Interesting that you think a "huge contract" came from it as the consultant is retired and has been for a long time. Perhaps you are mistaken into who you think my consultant is?

With regards to cost, I said you were expensive. You are the most expensive out of all the schemes are you not?

My methods of ensuring competence obviously work as the two consultants I put through both passed.

I don't have a massive downer on the scheme at all. It doesn't affect me at all and that is the point. There are thousands of risk assessors and there are 14 on FRACs scheme.

Why do you care so passionately what anyone thinks anyway Eli?




Offline alfi

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Re: Register of Fire Risk Assessors & Auditors
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2012, 11:58:47 AM »
Gents

thanks again for all the input, I'll suppose I'll just watch and see whats the best scheme to join, useful debate

Offline Tom W

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Re: Register of Fire Risk Assessors & Auditors
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2012, 12:40:39 PM »
Gents

thanks again for all the input, I'll suppose I'll just watch and see whats the best scheme to join, useful debate

Can I ask out of interest what has prompted you to look for 3rd party accreditation?