Midland Fire Service set up private company to generate income

[SandDancer]

http://www.birminghammail.net/news/top-stories/2012/02/08/west-midlands-fire-service-sets-up-private-company-to-generate-income-97319-30286241/

Hmm is it just me or can anybody else see a potential conflict of interest or worse?

Discuss 

[kurnal]

Too many questions and not enough answers at present. The Birmingham Mail report raises many questions- I cannot believe they really are going to be competing with the sprinkler industry and installing sprinkler systems on a commercial basis. The investment necessary and achieving LPC status would be a huge gamble with ratepayers money.

The conflict of interest really comes with risk assessment and fire engineering - and that is not mentioned in the news story.

As stated previously I dont think we can object to a true arms length company- but whether that will be the case is debateable.

Will they use the monopoly position as a fire and rescue service to gain unfair marketing adantage? You bet they will.
Will they hide or absorb the true cost of business overheads by subsidising their work by the use of existing employees? You bet they will.
Will they gain unfair free publicity for all they do through existing press and news relationships- you bet they will.
Will they continue to benefit from the huge subsidies offered by the BSI and Barbour et al for public services, a subsidy fuunded entirely by genuine companies trying to make a living? You bet.
Will they continue to benefit in terms of unfair representation for their business  organisations on national committees such as CFOA and BSI? Not arf.
When their enforcement officers find someone needeing professional assistance will they recommend a range of service providers without bias? Answers on a post card.

Other than that its wonderful news.  

[Wiz]

The article said;

The brigade will “sell” its expertise in fire safety and prevention to the private sector and plough all the money back into its day-to-day activities

Maybe it should have said;

The brigade will use the public's misguided belief that the fire brigade are the only true experts in everything fire related, to gain an unfair advantage over other businesses.

The moment they included the words 'West Midlands Fire Service ' in the trading title of their 'arms-length business' it became pretty obvious how they intend to be 'competitive' against other businesses.

Unfair and morally corrupt!

[nearlythere]

The article said;

The brigade will “sell” its expertise in fire safety and prevention to the private sector and plough all the money back into its day-to-day activities

Maybe it should have said;

The brigade will use the public's misguided belief that the fire brigade are the only true experts in everything fire related, to gain an unfair advantage over other businesses.

The moment they included the words 'West Midlands Fire Service ' in the trading title of their 'arms-length business' it became pretty obvious how they intend to be 'competitive' against other businesses.

Unfair and morally corrupt!

I think I can see a problem already. "....... expertise in fire safety......"

[David Rooney]

"k'ching ....." comes to mind ......

[nearlythere]

What impact has the other two - Manchester and Essex had on private consultancies?

[kurnal]

Hard to tell. But Essex were marketing pretty heavily a couple of years ago, one of my regulars in Leeds showed me their literature for training and risk assessments- went along the lines of they were the fire brigade and so their's was the definitive service.

[fitter]

Scary, really scary.

[William 29]

I see another problem.  If they use serving FSO's they will really only be used to an enforcing/auditing role.  Fire risk assessment and fire risk analysis in the commercial world is a whole different ball game and some FSO's just can't adapt to the change.  I see a prescriptive approach and hugging the codes being adopted which will only cause issues for the end client.  We already regularly disagree with fire officers on their approach to some building types.

Also how can then be assessors and enforcers in the same area, that’s the real issue I can’t get my head around.
 

[nearlythere]

I see another problem.  If they use serving FSO's they will really only be used to an enforcing/auditing role.  Fire risk assessment and fire risk analysis in the commercial world is a whole different ball game and some FSO's just can't adapt to the change.  I see a prescriptive approach and hugging the codes being adopted which will only cause issues for the end client.  We already regularly disagree with fire officers on their approach to some building types.

Also how can then be assessors and enforcers in the same area, that’s the real issue I can’t get my head around.
 

Who shall police the police?

[William 29]

The FIA is looking into it.

Fire and Rescue Authorities Trading in Breach of the Local Government Act 2003 - The FIA believes that a number of Fire and Rescue Authorities are trading in breach of the Local Government Act 2003 which requires the setting up of an arms-length trading company if such trading is profitable. In order to gather evidence on this matter the FIA has submitted Freedom of Information Requests to a number of Fire and Rescue Authorities and has written to their Chairs to gain further information and to ask for immediate cessation of trading if it is in breach of the Local Government Act 2003. The replies to the Freedom of Information Requests are due back in mid-February and based upon the information gathered the FIA will then move forward to the next part of its investigation of this matter. If any readers of this message would like to obtain more information on this subject or if they have evidence that would inform the situation then they should contact Graham Ellicott via gellicott@fia.uk.com

[nearlythere]

The FIA is looking into it.

Fire and Rescue Authorities Trading in Breach of the Local Government Act 2003 - The FIA believes that a number of Fire and Rescue Authorities are trading in breach of the Local Government Act 2003 which requires the setting up of an arms-length trading company if such trading is profitable. In order to gather evidence on this matter the FIA has submitted Freedom of Information Requests to a number of Fire and Rescue Authorities and has written to their Chairs to gain further information and to ask for immediate cessation of trading if it is in breach of the Local Government Act 2003. The replies to the Freedom of Information Requests are due back in mid-February and based upon the information gathered the FIA will then move forward to the next part of its investigation of this matter. If any readers of this message would like to obtain more information on this subject or if they have evidence that would inform the situation then they should contact Graham Ellicott via gellicott@fia.uk.com

Great stuff FIA. Perhaps we should all join?

[William 29]

Not a bad idea as you get to hear what's going on.  My company have been members for a while now.

[Tom W]

The FIA are very good at looking out for us.

Good work chaps.

[Wiz]

So the Local Government Act 2003 requires an arms-length company to be set up if income likely to generate a profit is actively sought.

What is the definition of 'arms-length'?

There are many lengths of arm.

And I'm sure there is an arm long enough to have 'West Midlands Fire Service Trading Ltd' written along it!

It is also possible to generate an income that doesn't make a profit. It's easy not to make a profit when none of it has to be used to pay wages (already covered by council tax). If it looks likely that a profit might be made, new cars, expense account lunches, trips abroad and refurbished offices can always be purchased!

Good luck to the FIA, but I think they will have a real fight on their hands.