Fire fighters entering a building

[Andy W]

Hi Folks.

I’d like to hear comments on this scenario please.

We have a section of the racking that contains goods of value, there is meshing along to the height of the first beam, about 2m, and a lockable door at one end. The length of the meshed racking is about 20m and 4m wide and backs against a brick wall. There is only two sets of racking- one against the wall and one that is meshed.

There are pallets of other products that are stacked on levels 2 & 3.

The finance director has decreed, after comments by our insurance inspector, that we should not lock this area as the fire & rescue service would not be able to gain access to fight the fire. We only have roof sprinklers in this section of the warehouse.

The area in question is only used during the day, when it’s left open, and locked at night. No persons will be inside the area at night.

Would the FRS want to enter this area to fight a fire when all people working in the warehouse will be outside at the assembly point?



Thanks

Andy

[nearlythere]

Would the FRS want to enter this area to fight a fire when all people working in the warehouse will be outside at the assembly point?

Why would they not Andy?

[Andy W]

Given the size of the area, and there is unobstructed views from both ends.

I would have thought that the fire fighting equipment would be powerful enough to easily cover the area without needing to break locks or chains.

Happy to be proved wrong.

Andy

[kurnal]

Many warehouses have high value cages and its conventional to lock them from the outside  provided the occupants can escape easily. If the fire service need access for firefighting or salvage no doubt during working hours someone can facilitate this?

Yours sounds very compact. Where roof sprinklers only are provided they should be designed and must be managed to ensure they are capable of dealing with the fire loading placed beneath them. Consideration is given to the type of goods, mode of storage and height of storage.  If your insurer has not raised an issue then it is safe to assume they are up to the job.

[Mike Buckley]

"Would the FRS want to enter this area to fight a fire when all people working in the warehouse will be outside at the assembly point?"

My answer would be a fairly definite maybe. Whether or not the fire service would want to enter the cage or the warehouse would depend on the circumstances at the time. Certainly the fire service would have the means to break into the area if they so wished.

The other aspect to consider is, following the Warwickshire incident and the legal fall out from that, the willingness of the fire service to commit people into the building.

[jokar]

Very unlikely in these days of firefighter safety that crews will enter a building without a life risk until the fire has been extinguished and even then, only if the building is safe.

[kurnal]

I dont disagree with what Jokar says- he is probably right.

I think it so sad that despite our heritage and record it appears to have come to this. I was brought with and believed the mantra composed by Sir Eyre Massey Shaw.

A Fireman to be successful, must enter buildings;
He must get in below, above, on every side, from opposite houses, over brick walls, over side walls, through panels of doors, through windows, through loopholes cut by himself in the gates, the walls, the roof;
He must know how to reach the attic from the basement by ladders placed on half burned stairs, and the basement from the attic by rope made fast on a chimney;
His whole success depends on his getting in and remaining there, and he must always carry his appliances with him, as without them he is of no use.

[jokar]

That was until Warwickshire happened and the HSE issued the document with CFOA where it stated " there is an unreal public perception that firefighters will put themselves at risk to save...."

[nearlythere]

A Fireman to be successful, must enter buildings;
He must get in below, above, on every side, from opposite houses, over brick walls, over side walls, through panels of doors, through windows, through loopholes cut by himself in the gates, the walls, the roof;
He must know how to reach the attic from the basement by ladders placed on half burned stairs, and the basement from the attic by rope made fast on a chimney;
His whole success depends on his getting in and remaining there, and he must always carry his appliances with him, as without them he is of no use.

What else would you expect of an Irishman K?

[Dinnertime Dave]

I dont disagree with what Jokar says- he is probably right.

I think it so sad that despite our heritage and record it appears to have come to this. I was brought with and believed the mantra composed by Sir Eyre Massey Shaw.

A Fireman to be successful, must enter buildings;
He must get in below, above, on every side, from opposite houses, over brick walls, over side walls, through panels of doors, through windows, through loopholes cut by himself in the gates, the walls, the roof;
He must know how to reach the attic from the basement by ladders placed on half burned stairs, and the basement from the attic by rope made fast on a chimney;
His whole success depends on his getting in and remaining there, and he must always carry his appliances with him, as without them he is of no use.

How old fashioned, i bet you think a fireman should save life, save property and render humanitarian services 

[nearlythere]

I dont disagree with what Jokar says- he is probably right.

I think it so sad that despite our heritage and record it appears to have come to this. I was brought with and believed the mantra composed by Sir Eyre Massey Shaw.

A Fireman to be successful, must enter buildings;
He must get in below, above, on every side, from opposite houses, over brick walls, over side walls, through panels of doors, through windows, through loopholes cut by himself in the gates, the walls, the roof;
He must know how to reach the attic from the basement by ladders placed on half burned stairs, and the basement from the attic by rope made fast on a chimney;
His whole success depends on his getting in and remaining there, and he must always carry his appliances with him, as without them he is of no use.

How old fashioned, i bet you think a fireman should save life, save property and render humanitarian services 

That's not old fashioned Dinnsy. Those qualities expected of a firefighter were dropped only a few years ago.

[Mike Buckley]

Yes those were the days when men were men and sheep looked very worried.

[SamFIRT]

Actually there is a misconception on the application of dynamic risk assessments (DRA) regarding operational commitment of fire fighting staff into the building.

If the DRA is complied with, and supported with suitable tactics, there is no reason fire fighting staff should not enter a building.

There have to comply with the DRA mantra (From memory)

•   We will risk our lives a lot to save saveable life
•   We may risk our lives to save saveable property
•   We will not risk our lives to try and save lives or property already lost.

Or words to that effect…..

The important thing is recognition primed naturalistic decision making, backed up with pre-gathered intelligence via the FRSA 2.7.2(d) and the application of; and most importantly the communication of; suitable equipment and tactics.
 
Talk to your FRA Andy and the local crews will carry out a 2.7.2 visit (the old 1.1.(d) ) and formulate an appropriate operational / tactical plan

[nearlythere]

Yes those were the days when men were men and sheep looked very worried.

And a pansy was a flower.

[Andy W]

Thanks one and all.

We are having in rack sprinklers and an extended fire proof room- when these are completed I am going to invide the local guys down. Kill two birds with one stone, so to speak.

Cheers

Andy