Author Topic: Smoke seals on sliding doors  (Read 13669 times)

Offline DavyFire

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Smoke seals on sliding doors
« on: March 02, 2012, 10:44:12 PM »
Need some help.
Private hospital with a new extension. There are two 60 minute fire doors on a compartment wall into theatre / recovery area. They are sliding and self closing. On the plans specified as 60 minute fire doors with smoke seals. The door and sliding track mechanism are certified. The intumescent strip (no smoke seal) is placed around the door frame (not in the opening as a hinged door)
Question 1. Will it work, or will it just push the door away from the wall. We are told, on a hinged door, if strips are placed on the door stop then it will push the door from the frame.
2. Has anyone seen a similar situation with smoke seals as well

Offline nearlythere

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Re: Smoke seals on sliding doors
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2012, 09:36:59 AM »
Need some help.
Private hospital with a new extension. There are two 60 minute fire doors on a compartment wall into theatre / recovery area. They are sliding and self closing. On the plans specified as 60 minute fire doors with smoke seals. The door and sliding track mechanism are certified. The intumescent strip (no smoke seal) is placed around the door frame (not in the opening as a hinged door)
Question 1. Will it work, or will it just push the door away from the wall. We are told, on a hinged door, if strips are placed on the door stop then it will push the door from the frame.
2. Has anyone seen a similar situation with smoke seals as well
The intumescent strips can actuate at different times depending on the heat layers and the higher up the door the hotter the escaping gases will more likely be. The intumescent strips at the higher level can operate pushing the door out  allowing cooler gases to escape through gaps lower down where the strips have not actuated.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline kurnal

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Re: Smoke seals on sliding doors
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2012, 11:59:56 AM »
Personally I have never yet seen a successful sliding fire door, and especially in respect  of smoke performance. Operating theatres demand the highest standards of fire separation as usually immediate evacuation is not an option.

Offline Fishy

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Re: Smoke seals on sliding doors
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2012, 12:45:18 PM »
If they are spec'd as FD60S doors then the 'S' denotes cold smoke sealing performance, & requires properly fitted cold smoke seals (brushes, blades, gaskets etc).  The intumescent itself won't give any door an 'S' rating.  Not sure how you would design these into a sliding door.  Could ask the seal companies (Sealmaster, Lorient etc) if they have suitable products?

Offline DavyFire

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Re: Smoke seals on sliding doors
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2012, 10:01:52 PM »
Thanks for the replies
Received the spec for the doors today;
      Intumescent fire and smoke seals routed into the door surroundings on 3 edges all to give 1hr FR as per Lorient LP1504DS

Apart from not supplying the spec, you can push a pen through the gap from midway down the door.   ???

I wondered have any of the forum members seen similar smoke seals on sliding doors

Offline kurnal

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Re: Smoke seals on sliding doors
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2012, 12:12:50 AM »
Heres a link to the Lorient website where you can download complete data on the use of their seals. I could not see any reference to use ofthese products on slidng doors.

http://www.lorientuk.com/products/acoustic-seals-smoke-seals-and-fire-seals-for-door-assemblies/ds/


Offline Fishy

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Re: Smoke seals on sliding doors
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2012, 12:23:08 PM »
      Intumescent fire and smoke seals routed into the door surroundings on 3 edges all to give 1hr FR as per Lorient LP1504DS

Apart from not supplying the spec, you can push a pen through the gap from midway down the door.   ???

Firstly, If it's a new installation, demond to see the evidence of fire resistance performance - which confirms that the door works as a sliding doorset.  Appendix A of the England & Wales Approved Document B tells you what to look for.

If there are any appreciable gaps between the smoke seals and the door or frame (apart from at the threshold, which doesn't need sealing), then the door cannot be regarded as being 'S' rated - the smoke seals will be ineffective.

Offline DavyFire

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Re: Smoke seals on sliding doors
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2012, 09:12:36 PM »
Thanks Fishy,
                   I am awaiting certification from the installers, and yes, I will want it to be for the doorset including the sliding track. The installer only fitted intumescent without seals, so it can't be an S doorset, even if specified on the plans as a 60 mins S door.

Kurnal, I have been on the Lorient site and telephoned them today. Their comment was 'it was down to the certification of the doorset' which is fair enough, but they couldn't confirm if their combined seal was suitable for a sliding door or not

Thanks to all :)

Offline nearlythere

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Re: Smoke seals on sliding doors
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2012, 11:27:30 AM »
Thanks Fishy,
                   I am awaiting certification from the installers, and yes, I will want it to be for the doorset including the sliding track. The installer only fitted intumescent without seals, so it can't be an S doorset, even if specified on the plans as a 60 mins S door.

Kurnal, I have been on the Lorient site and telephoned them today. Their comment was 'it was down to the certification of the doorset' which is fair enough, but they couldn't confirm if their combined seal was suitable for a sliding door or not

Thanks to all :)
Can't even be considered a fire door if the intumescent strips cause a breakdown of the fire resistance of the enclosure or compartment. Lorient sell a product which when applied properly does what it is supposed to do, if applied properly that is. 
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline Fishy

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Re: Smoke seals on sliding doors
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2012, 11:52:43 AM »
I’d be amazed if they can certify the design of the doorset, based on what you say.  I can see how this is going to run:

1.   They’ll bombard you with any technical information vaguely relevant  that they can download off the internet to try & convince you it’s OK; or
2.   They’ll tell you “we’ve been fitting these for (x) years & there has never been a problem before...”; or
3.   They’ll tell you “we’ve fitted these at (premises name)  & there wasn’t a problem...”; or
4.   They’ll not come up with any convincing technical evidence at all & will look glum.

If they can’t certify them, there’s nothing to stop them shelling out & getting the design tested at one of the Lab’s (Chiltern Fire at High Wycombe, BRE in Watford, the Building Test Centre at East Leake or Warrington Fire).  Alternatively, give one of Lab’s fire testing dept’s a call & see if they know anyone who’s successfully tested sliding doorsets, & give the supplier’s name to the contractor, so that they can replace the doorsets?
« Last Edit: March 28, 2012, 02:59:32 PM by Fishy »

Offline DavyFire

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Re: Smoke seals on sliding doors
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2012, 09:29:02 PM »
At a meeting last week, they mostly hid behind their folders and pointed to the Fire risk assessor stating that it was down to the fire risk assessment.
If the building was poorly designed, not to current guidance and then not built to spec, it can't all be passed to the FR assessor.

Meeting arranged for next week.
Client, Architects, Consulting Engineers, M & E Consultants and of course the Fire Risk Consultant. Should be interesting.

Offline nearlythere

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Re: Smoke seals on sliding doors
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2012, 08:02:23 AM »
At a meeting last week, they mostly hid behind their folders and pointed to the Fire risk assessor stating that it was down to the fire risk assessment.
If the building was poorly designed, not to current guidance and then not built to spec, it can't all be passed to the FR assessor.

Meeting arranged for next week.
Client, Architects, Consulting Engineers, M & E Consultants and of course the Fire Risk Consultant. Should be interesting.
What is the Fire Risk Consultant's background Davy?
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline DavyFire

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Re: Smoke seals on sliding doors
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2012, 08:53:05 PM »
NF,
    Ex Fire Officer, 5-6 years doing FRA's and staff training in care homes, offices etc
DF

Offline lingmoor

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Re: Smoke seals on sliding doors
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2012, 02:07:27 PM »
what was the outcome of the meeting?

Offline Colin Newman

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Re: Smoke seals on sliding doors
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2012, 04:58:31 PM »
If you've found a fire rated sliding door I'd love to get the details, because I've been looking for one for years.

I've been told that Lord Lucan has one, and that one was use on Shergar's stable, but I've not been able to find one!