Author Topic: Important determination on the provision of fire seals to hotel doors  (Read 46496 times)

Offline jokar

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Midland,you would hope so. , However, determinations are on a case by case basis and to get the same design of hotel with the same criteria may be a stretch.  As been mentioned before a number of FRS would miss out the determination and go straight to enforcement, forcing an appeal that the uniform would win whether just or not.

Midland Retty

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However, determinations are on a case by case basis and to get the same design of hotel with the same criteria may be a stretch.  

True, although I believe some national chains are starting to utilise standard building designs / footprints not just in respect of hotels but other types of buildings too.

As been mentioned before a number of FRS would miss out the determination and go straight to enforcement, forcing an appeal that the uniform would win whether just or not.

Agreed. Enforcing authorities should follow the principles outlined in the Enforcement Concordat and Hampton report, and as such you would hope they would make the RP aware of the determination process, offering it as a way forward where appropriate.

Determinations benefit everyone in the industry, they create lines in the sand and additional guidance.

Offline colin todd

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Retters, there is hope for you yet. Sometimes you talk a lot of sense, though your promise of food and wine at Retty Towers never materialises.

Kurnal, will you please put that main jet away, as you are drenching the place with water. I keep telling you there is no fire. Return to home station, play a game of pool and go to bed. Most of your surmising is way off beam. I go on holiday to America every August. I heard of this matter on the last day of a holiday in America when I logged on to the office server to check what chaos the English fire and rescue service had been causing during my absence. I have had two holidays in America since then and have booked a third.

Willie/Jock R  look at it this way, if an enforcement action is generic application of guidance with no suggestion that there are any particular circumstances of a case taken into account, a determination on that action, albeit case specific has major implications for both the matter in question and prescriptive application of guidance in general.  But like the telephone, television, copper wire, tarmacadam, sportsmanship in football, penicillin, deep fried Mars bars and Stornoway black pudding, Scotland led the way with a determination that guidance is just guidance and is not a minimum stndard or one that should ever be applied prescriptively.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Midland Retty

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Retters, there is hope for you yet. Sometimes you talk a lot of sense, though your promise of food and wine at Retty Towers never materialises.

What do you mean "sometimes"? Funnily enough Cardinal Todd your job offer never materialises either  ;D

Offline colin todd

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We are currently recruiting Monsignor Retters.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline nearlythere

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We are currently recruiting Monsignor Retters.
Yep. Great barsteward when other barsteward was away for a while. Inclined to wipe out profits though with his unquenchable thirst for all things alcoholic. But here, you gets what you pays for ;)
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Midland Retty

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We are currently recruiting Monsignor Retters.
Yep. Great barsteward when other barsteward was away for a while. Inclined to wipe out profits though with his unquenchable thirst for all things alcoholic. But here, you gets what you pays for ;)

Cheers NT - can I put you down for a reference ?


Offline nearlythere

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We are currently recruiting Monsignor Retters.
Yep. Great barsteward when other barsteward was away for a while. Inclined to wipe out profits though with his unquenchable thirst for all things alcoholic. But here, you gets what you pays for ;)

Cheers NT - can I put you down for a reference ?


Absolutely Ratty old mate. Write it down and I will sign.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline Dinnertime Dave

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Back on track now we have sorted Midland`s future employment out.

A few points I would add –

Colin you point out the waste of tax payer’s money, sorry I have to disagree.  at some stage somebody has to take a stance and go to determination to assist assessors and enforcers on what is acceptable.
 
One point I would make from reading determination is there appears to be some emphasis on time taken to evacuate (7 minutes) now I have been a firefighter for 25 years in that time I have been to a couple of fires in hotels and numerous calls to alarms operating and I have never in the middle of the night seen a hotel of over 200 rooms evacuated in that time. Has anybody?

Some guides quote pre movement times of up to 20 minutes. Colin, I have to admire you on getting that believed
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 06:26:07 PM by Dinnertime Dave »

Offline kurnal

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What if the new risk assessment is deemed not to be S&S by the enforcing authority?  Who is the enforcing authority for the new re-written risk assessment come to that....sorry Colin closing down home station.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 08:12:31 PM by kurnal »

Offline colin todd

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Good man, Big Al. Now stay at the pool table until the bells go down.  I will ring 999 if I need you.

Dinner, I am sure the taxpayers of the county were pleased to sort out the matter that most people already knew and many other FRS regarded as a no brainer. But I will ask them and revert.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Midland Retty

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Hi DTD

I have to agree with Colin. This particular case shouldn't have gone for determination.

Both parties agreed that the fire risk assessment was not suitable and sufficient, and instead of going for a determination the fire authority should have asked for the risk assessment to be reviewed to take into account of the lack of strips and seals on fire doors.

I believe the hotel operators agreed to renew the assessment and replace or upgrade the doors during the next major refurb of the premises (no specific time frames mentioned). That should have been the end of the matter (in my opinion) as there was no immediate need to upgrade.

 

Offline Dinnertime Dave

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Colin and Midland, I personally don`t disagree but I do know officers who have been happy to enforce strips and seals in all premises including non sleeping some of them work in he same brigade as me. It doesn`t matter what I or others say - Their response is that is your opinion this is mine

Without a determination they will contiue.

 

Midland Retty

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I see where you are coming from Dinnertime Dave, but to use the determination process to inform enforcers not to guide hug is inappropriate.

Offline wee brian

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thats what it is for