Using loved ones

[Tom W]

Reading through the Lakanal house reports there are obviously a number of errors but the lack of familiarisation was important.

"Despite knowing people were trapped in flats 79 and 81, poor knowledge of the layout of the block hindered the rescue effort.

Fire fighters described getting lost and not realising what floor they needed to get to in the complex layout."

"Tragically these crews were just metres from the trapped families in flat 81 but ran too low on air and had to withdraw to secure the safety of the first family."

Now in the case of Rafael Cervi, he was there witnessing this. What if he was given the option of signing a waiver, given some breathing apparatus and an axe and going for it? He wouldn't have got lost, he wouldn't have stopped at the stage of oxygen running low. The poor guys whole family was in there, If that was me I'd have taken the chance like a shot.

I'm not saying anything against firefighters, of course they always try their best but its their best within the limits of health and safety. The "loved ones" rule wouldn't apply to every situation obviously but I just can't help but think that in this situation he may have stood a better chance.
 

[nearlythere]

Reading through the Lakanal house reports there are obviously a number of errors but the lack of familiarisation was important.

"Despite knowing people were trapped in flats 79 and 81, poor knowledge of the layout of the block hindered the rescue effort.

Fire fighters described getting lost and not realising what floor they needed to get to in the complex layout."

"Tragically these crews were just metres from the trapped families in flat 81 but ran too low on air and had to withdraw to secure the safety of the first family."

Now in the case of Rafael Cervi, he was there witnessing this. What if he was given the option of signing a waiver, given some breathing apparatus and an axe and going for it? He wouldn't have got lost, he wouldn't have stopped at the stage of oxygen running low. The poor guys whole family was in there, If that was me I'd have taken the chance like a shot.

I'm not saying anything against firefighters, of course they always try their best but its their best within the limits of health and safety. The "loved ones" rule wouldn't apply to every situation obviously but I just can't help but think that in this situation he may have stood a better chance.
 

Well Piglet. You have just started a major topic which will attract a lot of attention. The views will be very interesting. Think I will make a few myself after a while.  I can see a big No No being the preferred option already.

[Tom W]

Its a no no in terms of people not wanting to be responsible for someone putting their life in substantial danger.

This wouldn't be something that would apply to every situation. If this was me and I could hear radios saying they are getting lost on the way to rescue my family and they now have to withdraw because H&S says they have to at X amount of oxygen left Id be stealing some oxygen and going in if they like it or not. 

Why shouldn't he be allowed a chance? Its his life, its his family and he was the most knowledgable person of the premises. Maybe not let him go off by himself but use him as a guide maybe.

[kurnal]

There must be other ways of achieving the same ends.

The whole thing should not have happened in the first place and hopefully the change of focus  that followed the tragedy has resulted in a reduction in risk in blocks of flats and reduced the liklihood of this ever happening again. I said hopefully. Prevention is always the first priority.

Would it be reasonable for each block to have a fire box with plans of the building? It probably would have helped. Fire Brigades could help in pushing for these things.

As for giving a member of the public a BA set - no way. Things like training and familiarisation and safe procedures need to be considered. To do so would be like giving a young child a bottle of tablets when they complain of a headache.

But in saying this I do have huge sympathy with the breaved and my heart goes out to them. But compounding the issue byallowing someone else to  put themselves at risk would be folly. And when he became lost theres another priorty to divert the fire fighters attention away from the immediate task.

[nearlythere]

Its a no no in terms of people not wanting to be responsible for someone putting their life in substantial danger.

This wouldn't be something that would apply to every situation. If this was me and I could hear radios saying they are getting lost on the way to rescue my family and they now have to withdraw because H&S says they have to at X amount of oxygen left Id be stealing some oxygen and going in if they like it or not. 

Why shouldn't he be allowed a chance? Its his life, its his family and he was the most knowledgable person of the premises. Maybe not let him go off by himself but use him as a guide maybe.

Who provides the apparatus? Who provides the training? Who would be trained? Who maintains it? Who makes sure it will be there when needed? How many would you need? What if no trained wearers were in that night? What happens if it goes horribly wrong?
It goes on. I understand where you are coming from Piglet and I'm sure that legally there would be nothing to prevent the residents doing something like this but I doubt if the fire service would entertain an initiative like this. I just have a feeling that the ramifications could be serious if things went wrong.
That my initial view anyway.

[Tom W]

I know what you're both saying, and this is exceptional circumstances but this "fith ammendment" would be for exceptional circumstances.

What training do they really need for a BA set?

If that were me and I knew the rescuers were getting lost I'd be going in anyway so why not give me the best possible chance and give me a BA set or an Axe?

My memory is hazy but what about the fire fighter that was disciplined for wading into a river without the proper precautions to rescue someone, what if the next time the fire fighter abided by the rules but a family member was witnessing this?

[nearlythere]

I know what you're both saying, and this is exceptional circumstances but this "fith ammendment" would be for exceptional circumstances.

What training do they really need for a BA set?

If that were me and I knew the rescuers were getting lost I'd be going in anyway so why not give me the best possible chance and give me a BA set or an Axe?

My memory is hazy but what about the fire fighter that was disciplined for wading into a river without the proper precautions to rescue someone, what if the next time the fire fighter abided by the rules but a family member was witnessing this?

You say "give me a BA set or an Axe?". Why would an axe help if you didn't have a BA set?
As K says Piglet there are other ways. Unfortunately people died and that is very sad but I think that, obviously too late now, measures will most certainly be looked at to prevent another tragedy like this.

[Tom W]

I truely hope lessons are properly learned.

You can tell I've never been a fire fighter, I figured you guys always have axes so they must be useful.

[nearlythere]

I truely hope lessons are properly learned.

You can tell I've never been a fire fighter, I figured you guys always have axes so they must be useful.

Don't think I have ever used a hand axe in my life other than to clean it.

[nearlythere]

What training do they really need for a BA set?

An awful lot of safety procedures, to start.

[kurnal]

I have trained non service members to wear the fire services  BA, we used to do this at Chatsworth House for example. This was so that the chatsworth fire team could guide our people to the scene of a fire and away from it in an emergency, due to the complex nature of the building. But those guys did a full 2 week BA course and kept their hand in by wearing monthly on exercises with the fire service. They were brilliant at it but still would only wear as number 2 in a 3 person team with fire fighter front and rear. It can work but reinforces the point - training, teamwork and practice are essential.

One of the biggest enemies of us all is the red mist that can descend in a critical situation, when the task facing you overrides all other considerations and health and safety and safe working procedures dont seem fit the perceived crisis and the action necessary. Its then people take brave but ill considered actions that sadly have cost many lives over the years. The FBU have produced paper on this topic.
http://www.firetactics.com/fbu_fatalities_report.pdf

[Midland Retty]

As the others have already said this was a tragic incident and I have nothing but sympathy for the victims and their families.

It must have been absolutely horrific for the gentleman concerned to see the fire crews agonisingly close to reaching his family but couldn't save them.

We instinctively want to protect our friends, family, pets and possessions and in situations beyond our control we often question others who deal with those situations and may sometimes feel they did not do all they could to help or that we could have somehow done better.

One thing I can say with certainty is that being a competent BA wearer takes training and practice is more than just donning a BA cylinder and entering a burning building. There are so many factors to consider. I would never ever advocate the notion of having untrained people wearing BA.

My view is that you should always put your trust in professionals. They are not infalible, but better they deal with a situation, than a well meaning bystander getting involved making the situation much much worse.

[jokar]

I got lost in a small room once in heat and smoke.  The idea that anyone can find their way around in a large building in smoke even though they know their way is almost laugable.  Add that to heat,stress and pressure both from the public other services and the FRS and iit may or may not be achievalbe.

In a similar vein I attended an access auidt course where adelegate wwsa visulally impaired.  He challenged me to find my way around the building we were in with a blindfold, impossible.  Different skills!

[Tom W]

So you're saying each pump should have a blind FF? 

Joking aside good debate, you turned my crazy notion, kudos