A fire engine may not be sent

[Paul2886]

Your views would be appreciated if you provide fire training for care homes.
I would like to know how you would address the following during such sessions.
My local FA will not be responding to 999 calls generated by AFA’s unless a fire can be confirmed or there are signs of a fire. This is both during the day and night from April 2013. The problem might be, for instance a detector in a roof space being activated and even with a remote indicator linked does not confirm a fire. The staff, even during the night from April 2013, are expected to confirm the integrity of the alarm before any fire engine is sent.
Does that mean that they get a step ladder and lift the loft hatch to take a look? What about the remote indicator at the head of a lift that has illuminated? Possibly just two staff on duty at night periods.
Suggestions have been made to silence the system and see if it reactivates....that won’t work........try resetting and see what happens.......that won’t work.
I have a possible solution by reconfiguring the detection system in such places but would like your views. Thanks all.

[kurnal]

My opinion is as follows

1-Alarm sounds
2- Staff report to muster point
3- Call fire brigade tell them of alarm and that it is being investigated.If they dont want to come thats their decision, but the care staff will have a clear conscience.
4- Send staff to location to carry out search
5- If any signs of smoke, smells of burning, flickering lights, unusual noises call fire brigade again to confirm signs of fire
    start moving persons from risk areas.
6- If no signs of fire double check the panel and confirm the whole of the right zone has been checked. Check again including using the    steps if necessary.
7- Then reset the panel, if it sounds again go back to step 4 or if it resets satisfactorily record it as an unwanted alarm in the log book, and report to engineers. Make further call to fire service to inform them of what has been done.
8- Increase vigilance until it is clear that othing untoward was happening

[Paul2886]

Thanks Kurnal for your reply and always respect your opinions. All sounds ok accept if it won't reset. Still no signs of a fire and in a large roof space for example. I do not see too many problems where a detector head is easily accessible to check (red lights) but its those blighters in out of the way places such as lofts etc that may cause problems.

[colin todd]

Pauley, Make it clear also in the 999 call that the premises are a care home and there are vulnerable persons at risk. It might help with the weight of attendance but if it does not it will give the FRS less to hide behind at the inquest and civil action when it all goes horribly wrong.

[Paul2886]

Thanks Colin, have discussed that scenario with them and assured there will be no engine sent unless signs of a fire or confirmation. They will attend however to sheltered accomodation where the call may be received from a call centre as no checks will be possible

[colin todd]

Pauley, are you saying they will go to sheltered, where people should be safe to stay in their own flats, but not to care homes, where people arent safe to stay in their own bedrooms.  My advice by the way was not flippant. You need to lumber them with a major liability if they dont attend in which, by virtue of the recorded 999 call, it will be demonstrable that control were warned of the vulnerability of the residents, the number of staff on duty and the dangers of investigating without the knowledge that the FRS are on the way.

Incidentally, in the new BS 5839-1, the advice will be given that, in the event of a fire alarm actuating in a care home, there should be no delay in summoning the FRS pending an investigation.

[Paul2886]

Hi Colin, In answer to your question then 'yes' as there will be no one to investigate if an alarm is dealt with by a remote call centre. Obviously no one available to investigate.
I made the very point that you made about vulnerable people but it appears they will stick to there forthcoming procedures come April where it extends to night periods as well. I hope its all been thought through by the powers that be as this is going to cause problems. I provide a great deal of training to care homes and it leaves me concerned about the pressures placed upon possibly two carers tending residents on a busy night and having to face these added pressures.
It worries me that when I spoke to FSO recently they mentioned that if you 'silence' the system and it goes off again then it can be confirmed as a possible fire and they will attend. We know that even if there is a fire certain types of systems can be silenced and will stay that way until the products of fire spread to an adjacent zone.....scarey stuff when you hear things like that

[kml]

Pauley
The Rosepark FAI concluded that

CHAPTER 44(5): EARLY INVOLVEMENT OF THE FIRE BRIGADE
In RP5 I have made findings that the following would have been reasonable precautions:
RP5.1 An immediate call to the Fire Brigade when the fire alarm sounded and, to that end:-
5.1.1 An Emergency Procedure which provided for an immediate call to the Fire Brigade; and
5.1.3 Automatic transmission of a signal to the Fire Brigade in the event that the fire alarm was activated

Nationally FRS are trying to reduce unwanted fire signals (see CFOA guidance on unwanted fire signals)
Im not convinced that a policy of treating an AFA from an unoccupied office building at night in the same way as an AFA from a residential care home at night is a good idea. With a large number of FRS following this sort of policy there is a great deal of scope for someone to get caught out.

[Paul2886]

Hi Kml,
Quite agree and possibly not thought through properly but the powers that be. Could it be that the people making these decisions have no in-depth experience in such matters with heads turned towards budgets. We all know the importance of reducing unwanted fire signals which we all try to help with, but this is causing a lot of concern in my area in the care homes.
Scenario: 30 elderly and vulnerable bed-ridden residents in a nursing home......1 nurse who happens to be an agency nurse and 1 carer.....3.00am the fire alarm sounds and a remote indicator indicates a detector in the loft......999 call made......no reponse from FRS as not confirmed....no obvious signs of fire so a step ladder is collected from the basement.....15 minutes later the nurse lifts the loft hatch to take a peep....the rest I'll leave to your imaginations as it doesn't bear thinking about. Of course there will be a lot of occasions when checks can be made which the fire training should encompass.

The people making these decisions need to understand a bit more about how fire detection systems function in silence and reset modes and realise they don't always resound on silence and won't reset until that reason for it activating has been removed.

[Animal]

Call challenging to AFAs by the bean counters throught the F&RS is a sad direction that will one day end with a large litigation case, and it  is plain to see what direction it will come from.

We are in the world of risk.......if it happens well then we might have to go to court and pay for it.....but if it does not happen money in the bank.

Have I got this risk mixed up with making money or protecting life?

So all new care homes must have a sprinkler system.........when will the F&RS want to know if it is a real fire that activated the sprinkler alarm or a fault in the system?

I do hope the goverment is going to make all care home staff understand and speak english ( I see doctors must soon be able to do this) so  when they are talking to the 999 control room operator, in a calm manner explaining that it is a real fire, that they have spent the last ten minutes investigating and that they thought the fireman were already on the way because the fire station is only 2 miles away (well thats what the risk assessment said) oh sorry cant chat any more the dementia clients are all over the place because of the fire alarm going off and we only had three staff on duty........byeeeeeeee.

Cynical well yes but how near to real life?


By the way I am up for Colin as Director in Chief of a private F&RS so long as he gives Kel the job of Assistant Director in Chief HR 

[Bruce89]

Scenario: 30 elderly and vulnerable bed-ridden residents in a nursing home......1 nurse who happens to be an agency nurse and 1 carer...

Paul, I think that it highly likely that the RP is failing in his duties as indicated in Art 15 (1) (b) in the scenario you describe above.

[kurnal]

Yes Bruce but there are many thousands of care homes with up to 40 residents and two care staff on nights. They work to staffing needs criteria as set out in the Care Standards Act.

If compliance with Article 15 requires more staff specifically to implement the emergency plan why are the enforcers not banging the drum? Are they content to pick them off one by one as and when a tragedy occurs? Would there be an outcry if they were more proactive?

Let us remember that the normal expectation is for staff to evacuate those residents at risk using PHE and in a well designed care home with small evacuation zones this may not be too onerous. Reducing the size of the evacuation zone may be a more viable solution than employing more staff! Especially when many Local Authorities set the fee levels that they pay for socially funded residents at a level below that which is viable for the home, and the shortfall is met by charging self funding residents a premium to subsidise those on social funding.

[Midland Retty]

Does the thought of two care staff on at night does concern me? Yes very much so, but alas it is the norm. You simply won't get care home providers to employee more staff at night. Its just not viable, although some providers run at a tidy profit, but thats a different debate for another day.

When you consider that out of those two members of staff one will be calling fire service initially, and then may have to break away from an evac to allow fire crews into the building (if they respond) you can see the pressure two staff are under.

I cannot see any logic behind this particular authoritys refusal to respond to life risk. I can undertsand an empty factory / office building being call challenged, but not sleeping risks.

On the flip side I've heard others argue that RPs out there need to get their houses in order, that they should implement additional compartmentation, or install sprinklers, for example, if they do not have the staff to carry out an evacuation in an appropriate amount of time. To me that argument holds no water, particularly in the current climate.

In addition to loss of life, what about loss or partial loss to buildings? We all know how fire can impact on communities, jobs, loss of essential services, local economy etc 

[SamFIRT]

To me that argument holds no water, particularly in the current climate

So.............. local authority FRS are expected to subsidise poor wage paying private sector employers?

And whilst a fire crew are chasing yet another false alarm someone somewhere is in need of rescuing?

Doesn't seem fair on the local tax payer

[Mike Buckley]

And whilst a fire crew are chasing yet another false alarm someone somewhere is in need of rescuing?

Not if the Control Room is doing its job!

I remember an excercise for the HMI where we had the first attendance and make up at the exercise and when the fire alarm went off in another part of the building Control still got the PDA there in time without taking any of the appliances from the exercise.