Fire door keep shut notices

[Animal]

So far I have read many British Standards, Approved Document B, The Signs and Signals Regulations, online advice from other forums all to no avail, I phoned a friend now it is time to ask the audience, the conundrum is:

Is a single vertical fire door keep shut sign on the closing edge above the lock of a fire resisting door compliant?

If yes why is it?

It would appear that these signs are becoming more frequent in use and have also passed the scrutiny of a Building Control Officer.

I have looked online at the trade sales for signs and they are readily available in this format.

[AnthonyB]

I take it you mean this signL
 http://www.directa.co.uk/site/scripts/product_browse.php?product_id=14715&category_id=460

[Animal]

Yes that is the type of one

[William 29]

Is a single vertical fire door keep shut sign on the closing edge above the lock of a fire resisting door compliant?

When you ask compliant, compliant with what?

[Animal]

British standards/ISO & ADB as I understand so far this type of sign does not have to meet the signs and signals regulations......is this also correct.

[William 29]

British standards/ISO & ADB as I understand so far this type of sign does not have to meet the signs and signals regulations......is this also correct.

To be honest not sure if the sign would be "compliant" or not but if you are asking would I make a big deal of it during a fire risk assessment then the answer would be no. It would seem that it would act as a reminder for the occupants to keep the fire doors closed so no issues there.

[William 29]

Also re signs and signals regs don't forget we now have BS/EN7010:2011

[Animal]

Thank you William I could not agree more....so why did I ask the question? Well back in the old days BS 5588 stated these signs should be on both faces of the door BS 9999 says nothing. All of the very helpful online documents on this subject state the same..on both faces of the door. Hence my question.

[nearlythere]

Also re signs and signals regs don't forget we now have BS/EN7010:2011

What about the smoke seal if fitted which is more common now?

[William 29]

The  5588 suite of docs have really now been superseded but as with all older BS docs or guides they are of use when benchmarking as to what was recommended at the time when they were written. Re 9999 in my view you couldn’t cherry pick from this BS (some do) anyway if it did mention the fire doors signs.

In short ask yourself are you going to ask the RP to remove the said signs from the edge of the door and replace with two “complaint” signs “Blue background, white lettering at eye level” blah, blah on each face of the door?

NT is right though the fitting of a strip and seal would have a bearing on it.

[Tom Sutton]

Check out BS EN ISO 7010 2012 this is a European norm and will need to be included in the member states law. Also BS ISO 3864 pt1 2011 is relevant as it includes the layout of supplementary signs and the "keep door shut sign" includes this sign.

My interpretation is a general mandatory sign (blue circle with white exclamation mark) with a supplementary sign, above, below or to either side (blue rectangle with white words). It does not include the sign you described above because it shows the longer side, horizontal and the shorter side, vertical.

http://i419.photobucket.com/albums/pp272/twsutton/0150-900x9001.jpg

[Animal]

Nearlythere:   The sign was next to the intumescent strips and cold smoke seal and I had already taken this in to account.

William 29: I am aware of the status of BS 5588, what I was alluding to verify in my comments, was the range of documents researched for this question.
Again I was not looking at ‘cherry picking’ I was simply stating that all of these documents used to sing from the same hymn sheet.
The sign is not a show stopper and it would be ludicrous to ask for it to be removed and replaced with the ‘normal’ signs, that question was not even contemplated or even thought of asking an RP.

Thank you Tom back you are on track now with my original question.

So the vertical sign may not be compliant, it begs the question of how the vertical signs have been introduced........the good idea concept without consultation?  Did it need consultation? Should it be compliant?

Are any BCO’s Approved Inspectors or even the nice Inspecting Officers in uniform (or not) out there have a view?

In my view the sign does have a use, it is more aesthetically pleasing to the eye in let’s say a heritage premises.
But in certain circumstances it is superfluous, because it would not be seen i.e. on an outwardly opening door which opens on to a dedicated escape staircase (not in normal daily use to get from A to B) which has been wedged open on one of our hot summer days.

The only reason the questions are posed, is because I am sure, very soon the vertical sign will become the norm and me being an inquisitive person wants to know why the change and is it correct?

[William 29]

Nearlythere:   The sign was next to the intumescent strips and cold smoke seal and I had already taken this in to account.

William 29: I am aware of the status of BS 5588, what I was alluding to verify in my comments, was the range of documents researched for this question.
Again I was not looking at ‘cherry picking’ I was simply stating that all of these documents used to sing from the same hymn sheet.
The sign is not a show stopper and it would be ludicrous to ask for it to be removed and replaced with the ‘normal’ signs, that question was not even contemplated or even thought of asking an RP.

Thank you Tom back you are on track now with my original question.

So the vertical sign may not be compliant, it begs the question of how the vertical signs have been introduced........the good idea concept without consultation?  Did it need consultation? Should it be compliant?

Are any BCO’s Approved Inspectors or even the nice Inspecting Officers in uniform (or not) out there have a view?

In my view the sign does have a use, it is more aesthetically pleasing to the eye in let’s say a heritage premises.
But in certain circumstances it is superfluous, because it would not be seen i.e. on an outwardly opening door which opens on to a dedicated escape staircase (not in normal daily use to get from A to B) which has been wedged open on one of our hot summer days.

The only reason the questions are posed, is because I am sure, very soon the vertical sign will become the norm and me being an inquisitive person wants to know why the change and is it correct?

Hey........was just trying to answer your question as i read it? 

[Tom Sutton]

Animal - some of the signs are clearly illustrated in both the old and new standards but the "fire door keep shut" sign is not and open to interpretation. I have given my interpretation above, and all the sign makers will give theirs you are never get a definitive answer.

As for sighting/location/size of signs you may find some answers in BS ISO 3864 pt 1 2011.