NEW VERSION OF BS 5839-1

[Wiz]

Do you not get them free from your local library?

Apparently you can but I've never looked into it to see how far I'd have to travel. http://www.bsieducation.org/Education/resources/libraries.shtml

Many libraries allow members to access copies on-line from any PC if you are a member of that library. So you could view it, but not print it out, from home or office, free-of-charge. But having a hard copy comes in very handy (see above).

That's where PDFUnlock can come in useful - turns secured PDFs into printable PDFs.

That is a way to break the copyright, Owain, but each page is printed with information indicating that it is a copy which is meant to be only viewed and not printed.

In my opinion British standards are so important they should be made easily available and at a reasonable cost. The service should be paid for by all taxpayers (it is surely to the benefit of everyone) and only the actual cost of printing and distributing a hard copy should be paid by the purchaser. This would probably work out at £15-£25 a copy.

[lancsfirepro]

We gained BAFE SP205 via NSI, if you join NSI (fee is around £90 but please check) then you can view and download any BS, I think you can use it for about 3 months then it deletes off your system but you can just re download it again, so worth checking out.

Same here, it is £90 plus vat.  The PDFs don't delete but you get a popup saying the document has expired and you must download it again.  It then closes the file.  I was on to NSI about them getting BS9999 on it but apparently it's too expensive a standard to be on their £90 deal.  The new alarm standard ain't on yet.

[Graeme]

Get a BSI membership and buy it.

You get to keep it and not worry about it expiring. Used that method once but soon got sick of it if you need to refer to a standard regularly.

[colin todd]

Well said, Graeme.  Kurnal, why do you feel ripped off. Its a good read.  I think Wee B has captured most of the changes possibly other than a new recommendation for all fire alarm systems in care homes to have an ARC connection., which complements the recommendation that staff alarms involving investigation of fire alarm signals before summoning the FRS should not be adopted in res. care homes.

Wee B, I thought you would be busy having a gander at AD B.  Apparently it is not understandable? Anyone believing that has never read the Scottish Tech handbooks mind you.

[kurnal]

It is a good read agreed Colin. But the point is the changes could easily be issued as a supplement rather than having to buy the whole lot over again.

I remain a bit puzzled by the status of the recommendations for care homes. I agree with the sentiment but guidance on the operational management and emergency procedures seem to me to be out of place in "Fire detection and fire alarm systems for buildings. Code of practice for design, installation, commissioning and maintenance of systems in non-domestic premises"

This really should be in sector specific guidance. I suppose someone felt that this was the only way to reflect the findings from Rosepark in England?

[colin todd]

Big Al, there is no vehicle in the BSI stable to constitute a supplement, when in fact there are a myriad of subtle amendements. I am afraid a new edition was the only option. An amended version could have been issued but it would have amounted to the same thing at the same cost ; only the date on the front would have been different.

The procedural aspect in respect of response of staff to fire signals in care homes strays near to the boudary of fire alarm system design, but is just about legit, because an investigation prior to turning out the bruvvers would constitute a form of staff alarm which is a subject addresed in BS 5839-1. It is also worth saying in the hope that some FRS in England might actually read it.

[Graeme]

Colin.

There are a couple of additional tick boxes on the model acceptance certificate and one if which is a big head ache for me when bringing together all documentation..the certificate of 240v supply.

Every install I am involved with always involves chasing the electrical contractor for the certificate. Some jobs I never see one and I have to document it on my certificates.

I was wondering how long a wait or number of attempts is reasonable before the job is signed over without one as a variation. The customer withholds the invoice until they have a compliant system so they may not agree the variation and if the box on the acceptance certificate is not ticked and noted in the section at the bottom which lists what needs to be done before system can be accepted,where do you draw the line?

Thanks in advance
Graeme

[colin todd]

Graeme, There is no easy answer to this, other than gradual education of the electrical contractors. That was the reason it was put in-to make people certificate the mains properly.  In the meantime, it is not really a variation, it is a non-compliance, and your docs should make it clear to the punter that the non-compliance is on the part of others and that you have merely identified it for him.

[Graeme]

Thanks Colin

[Bill J]

Graeme.

Like yourself this is a never ending problem for us, and the only solution we have is to note on the certificate that the paperwork for the electrical supply has not been seen, and note any spotted deficiences.

We now send our panels to site with a compliant double pole, etc, etc...spur in order to save the sparks having to do the last minute rush, which although we never really charge for it, does gain us brownie points and (sometimes) allows our commissioning engineer to say that he has seen the paperwork and it is compliant.

We do however have one job, local authority, where the panel was commissioned 9 months ago, and still not been turned on as their sparks havent put power to the panel, (we offered to get our man in, but he wasnt approved by them!?!).

Bill

[Graeme]

Cheers Bill. It's becoming just as much as a pain as chasing an install cert from a electrical contractor on a supply and commission job.

Colin- regards the non compliance for no certification. I take it from an SP203-1 view that a certificate of compliance cannot be issued until the electrical cert is obtained?

Thanks
Graeme

[Bill J]

Cheers Bill. It's becoming just as much as a pain as chasing an install cert from a electrical contractor on a supply and commission job.

Colin- regards the non compliance for no certification. I take it from an SP203-1 view that a certificate of compliance cannot be issued until the electrical cert is obtained?

Thanks
Graeme

You are welcome Graeme, we are LPS1014 rather than SP203-1 but the philosophy is the same. We have it as part of our process, that unless the commissioning engineer is satisfied that the electrical supply is fully compliant, its a variation. Our Commissioning Engineers are not qualified to confirm that, so its a certificate or a variation.

Please be aware that the 2013 version includes a little note at the end of Section 29 ensuring suitability of the means of isolating the mains. This doesnt appear in the summary of changes as it only lists the priniciple changes......

[PackMaCan]

FIA are running a free seminar to explain the changes to BS 5839-1 & -6 on 16 July, Winsford, Cheshire. Previously ran it a Hampton twice and it was a sell-out both times.

[PackMaCan]

There is mention in 22.1 commentary and 22.5 d) NOTE 1 about angled beams. The philosophy seams sound; where stratification is likely, angle an optical beam smoke detector  down from the ceiling and where ever the smoke layer forms the beam is likely to pass through it and detect it. The only thing is there is no guidance in the CoP or anywhere else that I can find. Even the manufacturers I've spoken to are no help. Any ideas?

[David Rooney]

Cheers Bill. It's becoming just as much as a pain as chasing an install cert from a electrical contractor on a supply and commission job.

Colin- regards the non compliance for no certification. I take it from an SP203-1 view that a certificate of compliance cannot be issued until the electrical cert is obtained?

Thanks
Graeme

Good point ..............