Author Topic: Fires in mains electrical intakes / cutouts  (Read 25473 times)

Offline Owain

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 466
Fires in mains electrical intakes / cutouts
« on: April 04, 2013, 03:10:35 PM »
Interesting report here

http://www.cfoa.org.uk/download/18650

FIRES ORIGINATING IN ELECTRICAL INTAKES
Created by MARK HOBBS (Lead Fire Investigation Officer)
East Sussex Fire & Rescue Service July 2010

Offline lancsfirepro

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 175
Re: Fires in mains electrical intakes / cutouts
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2013, 12:02:46 PM »
Interesting indeed.  Thanks for sharing that.
Think I'll forward the report to one of my clients that looked at me as if I was from Mars when I told her that the mains incomers often go up so board that basement ceiling.

Offline Wiz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1591
Re: Fires in mains electrical intakes / cutouts
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2013, 05:14:52 PM »
Although I have only skimmed through the report, it seems to me that it is saying (at least in part) that electrically conductive components carrying high current will warm up. The report describes this as 'localised resistance heating'.

Is this heating 'phenomenon' a surprise to anyone? Is this not how the elements in kettles, for example, heat the water?

Is it also not a surprise that the cables etc at the mains intake position of the electrical distribution system of a building (where most current will be carried) is likely to heat up the most?

Surely the manufacturers of electrical equipment take the heating effect of the electrical current passing through their equipment into account when designing that equipment? This heating phenomena has been known about for over a century.

I'd be more inclined to believe that many fires involving electrical equipment are caused by the additional heating effect of poor electrical connections causing 'electrical arcing'.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 05:16:53 PM by Wiz »

Offline Golden

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 486
Re: Fires in mains electrical intakes / cutouts
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2013, 05:45:23 PM »
Wiz - I too have only skimmed the report and adding to your summary it also appears that the consequences of the heating mainly becomes apparent when there's lots of storage/combustibles around the intake to insulate the problem and provide some fuel to the fire. Funny that?

Offline John Webb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 838
Re: Fires in mains electrical intakes / cutouts
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2013, 09:44:30 PM »
The report shows that there is a distinct risk of fire in the incoming mains cut-out fuse due to:
1. very old equipment still in use (which may have developed loose or corroded connections);
2. poor workmanship by the installer causing higher resistance connections not allowed for by the equipment maker which lead to overheating;
3. any occurrence of the above can be worsened if items are stored in close proximity to the cut-out fuse; such items can also be ignited to spread the fire.
 
It should be remembered that the cut-out fuse is rarely removed and while meter-readers check that seals on the meter and cut-out fuse are intact, I wonder if they are ever taught to check for signs of overheating?

It is also almost universal practice to mount the cut-out, meter etc. on a wood board spaced out from the wall. I believe this is to protect the equipment from damp in the wall, or even from water running down the wall from a leak elsewhere. Do we need to consider an alternative material or way of mounting the cut-out and meter, perhaps?
John Webb
Consultant on Fire Safety, Diocese of St Albans
(Views expressed are my own)

Offline SamFIRT

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 382
  • Looking for the truth
Re: Fires in mains electrical intakes / cutouts
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2013, 09:54:25 PM »
Wiz. You need to read the report throughout.

High resistance faults cause localised heating due to many things. The common ones are poor connections and overload.

The poor connections are usually caused by poor installation or faulty manufacture. The overload is usually caused by poor selection of components or simply too much current being drawn through the connection.

Quote
the cables etc at the mains intake position of the electrical distribution system of a building (where most current will be carried)
should be designed to carry the designed load without overheating .

This means the components need to be correctly rated for the job they are intended for. The rating also makes the assumption there is no heat insulation around the wiring and components and they are able to cool by dissipation of the heat created by normal use. Insulation could be simply the cables have been covered by "building insulation" materials, or the adjacent storage of combustibles.

Quote
I'd be more inclined to believe that many fires involving electrical equipment are caused by the additional heating effect of poor electrical connections causing 'electrical arcing'.


Not all poor connections manifest themselves immediately as arcing. It is more common (in my experience) for a high resistance fault to be caused first. Many people assume a high resistance fault needs a load to be applied to the circuit to cause the fault. This fails to realise the electrical insulation of the circuitry or components can fail for very many reasons causing what was an insulator to become a semi conductor and thereby create a circuit with its own load caused by (and causing) the heating effect. Connection corrosion, insulation heating leading to smoulder, surface tracking, in line arcing etc are all feasibilities. As the insulation breaks down it can cause cross conductor arcing. But this is usually a symptom of the fire and not actually the cause. The cause is the heating of the insulation or surrounding combustibles to auto ignition temperature by the localised high resistance heating. As Mark says.

High resistance heating and arcing is also different between AC and DC electricity ( vast over simplification)  as well and there is a lot of high voltage DC in many buildings now, with alternative energy generation. Something I am looking at.

Sorry this post is a bit vague and rambling but it is a big subject and this is only a discussion forum and not a text book

 ;D


 In reply to John's post. I have investigated a number of fires in modern electrical components and they are by no means "fire safer" than old ones. Faulty new components will ignite as will poorly installed new ones. And yes I agree timber (or other combustible) mounting boards are a problem.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 10:04:54 PM by SamFIRT »
Sam

Offline Owain

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 466
Re: Fires in mains electrical intakes / cutouts
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2013, 11:59:03 PM »
In reply to John's post. I have investigated a number of fires in modern electrical components and they are by no means "fire safer" than old ones. Faulty new components will ignite as will poorly installed new ones. And yes I agree timber (or other combustible) mounting boards are a problem.


Most of those photos were newish plastic intakes. Some of them were in almost new build houses. I think they're more likely to suffer during a fire than the old cast-iron metalclad stuff with asbestos and ceramic inserts. And of course PVC cables are thermoplastic unlike vulcanised rubber in continuous steel conduit.

A lot of the old stuff was installed with more skill and attention to detail too.

Offline Golden

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 486
Re: Fires in mains electrical intakes / cutouts
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2013, 10:57:15 AM »
One of the things I always look for is an electrical intake that's not cluttered with combustibles or any other connecting mediums - a colleague of mine found this excellent example of a good clean intake cupboard last week.

Offline Wiz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1591
Re: Fires in mains electrical intakes / cutouts
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2013, 11:22:43 AM »
I have now read the report fully.

It seems obvious from the report that the electrical intake equipment provided by the electricity supply providors is not always up to the job. This surprises me because they should be the experts, and this part of the electrical installation should surely be their complete responsibility.

It is not difficult to design equipment to take into account the heating effect of an electrical current but the report seems to indicate that the failure is regular enough to be a concern.

Maybe the electricity supply companies should be made to include a thermal cut-out into their equipment to prevent overheating if they can't provide equipment that can withstand the heat generated by the current allowed by the fuse protecting the supply.

Offline Mike Buckley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1045
Re: Fires in mains electrical intakes / cutouts
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2013, 02:00:24 PM »
Along a similar view there is an article in the April 2013 IFE Journal on the fire risks associated with Solar Panels.
The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it.