Author Topic: Stay-Put Principle Brought Into Question  (Read 11090 times)

Offline longjohn

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Stay-Put Principle Brought Into Question
« on: April 05, 2013, 09:53:42 AM »
Has anyone seen the article by Rob Ratcliff first paragraph of the article reads;

'Last week's narrative verdicts from the inquest into England's worst high-rise residential fire has brought the 'stay-put' principle into question.
Jurors found that the deaths of six people at Lakanal House in 2009 could have been avoided if those who became trapped had left their flats in good time. Instead, fire brigade operators instructed them to stay put under the clear belief that firefighters were on their way to rescue them. The coroner has written to the Communities Secretary, Eric Pickles, asking his department to publish consolidated national guidance on the 'stay-put' principle, and specifically its relation to the 'get-out-and-stay-out' policy'.


The link below will take you to the article.

http://www.ifsecglobal.com/author.asp?section_id=414

They say that if aircraft seats faced backwards towards the cockpit it would save lives in a plane crash, not seen a rush to do that following a plane crash, I've also heard somewhere that there are over a million people in the air at any one time. Not that we should be complacent in any way but how many people are in well constructed high rise Flats at any one time and safely go about their daily lives, surely this was a fire management failure, so now the stay put policy is being questioned. it was an awful tragic incident. I expect the 'fear sellers' of the fire industry are licking their lips now.   

Offline Golden

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Re: Stay-Put Principle Brought Into Question
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2013, 10:44:19 AM »
Longjohn I was actually quite comfortable with the outcome of the inquest and personally don't fear for the future of 'stay put' as its been realised that this was an unusual incident with many elements that went wrong - for example if this hadn't happened on one of the hottest days in the year when many windows and doors had been left open it may well have been confined to the room of origin. I think the coroner has asked for clarification of the 'stay put' principle as its not widely understood - I include some members of the fire safety profession within that statement. Having carried out FRAs on hundreds of blocks over the past few years I can assure you that not many residents understand the principle - and try telling the owner of a block of flats with a new fire alarm that you recommend its removal!

Why have exit and directional signs in a stay put building? Why have a fire evacuation strategy beyond stay put? The answer is that there may be a point at which you need to evacuate and its the decision to evacuate that is tricky - also how, and who, do you evacuate when there is no general fire alarm within the premises? There are a lot of questions that the FR advisor has to answer but hopefully it will require a thorough review of the stay put principles and clarify the issues; I don't think that it will change the principle but will make people in power think a bit deeper.

Offline nearlythere

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Re: Stay-Put Principle Brought Into Question
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2013, 11:26:16 AM »
I have wondered recently how "Stay Put" and evacuation not being dependant on the arrival of the Fire Service fit together.
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Offline wee brian

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Re: Stay-Put Principle Brought Into Question
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2013, 11:45:54 AM »
I have wondered recently how "Stay Put" and evacuation not being dependant on the arrival of the Fire Service fit together.

They are dependant - no getting away from that.


Offline longjohn

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Re: Stay-Put Principle Brought Into Question
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2013, 12:05:16 PM »
Longjohn I was actually quite comfortable with the outcome of the inquest and personally don't fear for the future of 'stay put' as its been realised that this was an unusual incident with many elements that went wrong - for example if this hadn't happened on one of the hottest days in the year when many windows and doors had been left open it may well have been confined to the room of origin. I think the coroner has asked for clarification of the 'stay put' principle as its not widely understood - I include some members of the fire safety profession within that statement. Having carried out FRAs on hundreds of blocks over the past few years I can assure you that not many residents understand the principle - and try telling the owner of a block of flats with a new fire alarm that you recommend its removal!

Why have exit and directional signs in a stay put building? Why have a fire evacuation strategy beyond stay put? The answer is that there may be a point at which you need to evacuate and its the decision to evacuate that is tricky - also how, and who, do you evacuate when there is no general fire alarm within the premises? There are a lot of questions that the FR advisor has to answer but hopefully it will require a thorough review of the stay put principles and clarify the issues; I don't think that it will change the principle but will make people in power think a bit deeper.

I couldn't agree more, Stay put is often a difficult one to explain to those outside of the fire bubble not to mention some inside it!.

Offline Tom W

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Re: Stay-Put Principle Brought Into Question
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2013, 02:49:01 PM »
The term "stay put" needs to be thrust from your minds. The correct term is "delayed evacuation" 

Offline Golden

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Re: Stay-Put Principle Brought Into Question
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2013, 03:22:43 PM »
No the correct term is 'stay put' or the US version being 'defend in place' - if this is successful other residents in the block may be blissfully unaware of there ever being a fire and certainly not evacuate because of it.

I quote from the Local Government Group fire safety in purpose built flats guide "This principle is undoubtedly successful in an overwhelming number of fires in blocks of flats. In 2009-2010, of over 8,000 fires in these blocks, only 22 fires necessitated evacuation of more than five people with the assistance of the fire and rescue service."

Offline wee brian

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Re: Stay-Put Principle Brought Into Question
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2013, 04:41:47 PM »
What people dont seem to grasp is that the residents do not need to understand the strategy.

- If you are in your flat (asleep) and there's a fire elsewhere in the block, you may never know there was a fire. Other than the funny smell in the stairs (better than urine?)

- If your flat is on fire - leave it.

- If your neighbour's flat is on fire and you are a bit worried about it - then leave the building.

This is what people would do anyway.

Offline longjohn

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Re: Stay-Put Principle Brought Into Question
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2013, 04:45:30 PM »
The term "stay put" needs to be thrust from your minds. The correct term is "delayed evacuation" 

I tend to associate Delayed Evacuation to Care Homes which have an 'enhanced level of structural fire protection to the individual
bedroom' (to quote the guidence) which not many have!

Midland Retty

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Re: Stay-Put Principle Brought Into Question
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2013, 04:54:20 PM »
No the correct term is 'stay put' or the US version being 'defend in place' - if this is successful other residents in the block may be blissfully unaware of there ever being a fire and certainly not evacuate because of it.

Agreed I have been called to several minor incidents in flats and the neighbouring tenants have slept peacefully undisturbed by the heavy boots of firefighters lurking next door!

You can't really call it a delayed evac for the reason Golden has already mentioned. Then again I suppose you can't call it stay put either because sometimes you might need to evacuate. And of course the persons in the flat of origin should fully evacuate.

But does the terminology really matter so long as those who need to understand it do so. Ive just come back from explaining to a group of residents the principles of stay put policy. When it is put across in lay person terms they grasp the concept.

Whilst I agree with Wee Brian some residents if they know their neighbours flat is on fire won't stay put or evacuate, they will instead come into the communal areas to find out whats going on and essentially be a bit nosey - I won't tell you which age group tend be the greatest offenders!
« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 05:01:09 PM by The Midland Martian »

Offline colin todd

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Re: Stay-Put Principle Brought Into Question
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2013, 08:03:39 PM »
What a bliss to see so much common sense in most of the above posts. I think that we need to distinguish between the stay put principle, which should not be in any way undermined, and people's understanding of it, which is an issue but an easy one to rectify, as Retters points out above.  I have explained the principle to many residents' associations, housing associations, etc. They always get the idea, but I disagree with Wee B that people dont need to understand.  I was totally horrified in one training course for HOUSING OFFICERS!!!! to find that a housing officer had always thought that, in his block of flats where he lived, stay put meant stay in his own flat (!!!!!!!!) if there was a fire. Totally unbelievable!

People go to work and have it drummed into them that they must operate the fire alarm system in the event of fire, that they must evacuate immediately when they hear the fire alarm, that if they as much as dont cooperate in fire drills its a disciplinary, and then they come home put Coronation Street on, and the next thing they look out of the window and there is 5 fire appliances, lines of hose and smoke, and they are supposed to understand that its alright to go back to Coronation Street (though why would you).

In some ways Lakanal House shows how safe high rise blocks and stay put actually is. Many structural issues were identified, but there was still a significant window of opportunity, according to evidence, for people to evacuate.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline nearlythere

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Re: Stay-Put Principle Brought Into Question
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2013, 08:45:13 AM »
I have wondered recently how "Stay Put" and evacuation not being dependant on the arrival of the Fire Service fit together.

They are dependant - no getting away from that.


They certainly are but its seems they don't want to be.
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Offline kurnal

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Re: Stay-Put Principle Brought Into Question
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2013, 07:59:37 PM »
In some ways Lakanal House shows how safe high rise blocks and stay put actually is. Many structural issues were identified, but there was still a significant window of opportunity, according to evidence, for people to evacuate.

That must be your most cryptic statement ever Colin. 

I think I can understand the  underlying point you wish to make- I guess you are suggesting that even when the structural fire precautions, intended to underpin the stay put policy have been abused and negated the safety margin was such that conditions remained tenable for a period of time?


Offline colin todd

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Re: Stay-Put Principle Brought Into Question
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2013, 08:09:15 PM »
It honestly wasnt meant to be cryptic Big Al, but my reading of the evidence is as you state.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline William 29

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Re: Stay-Put Principle Brought Into Question
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2013, 03:21:02 PM »
Interestingly just came up with this from a Fire and Rescue Service when they have audited an FRA on a sheltered housing scheme we did which stated that stay put was the most suitable strategy for the building.

a) The fire risk assessment should also consider the evacuation procedures for the premises. Whilst a stay put policy may be in place it is still necessary to plan for worst case scenario and consider when evacuation of a particular area may be necessary.

b) Staff should refresh themselves on the fire evacuation procedure and what to do in the event of fire on an annual basis.



Staff are not on site outside normal working hours.

Evacuation drills in accordance with the fire procedure for the common areas are carried out and recorded every six months.


As staff are only on site during normal working hours any fire procedure should not therefore rely on staff in my view? If F&RS are issuing these sort of comments does that not confuse the issue further?? ???
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 08:25:13 PM by William 29 »