Author Topic: Site Responsible Person  (Read 31903 times)

Midland Retty

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Re: Site Responsible Person
« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2013, 02:29:27 AM »
OK Tom you are missing the point (in my opinion) so we will have to agree to disagree on what's been said...  I would also disagree with Anthony B's comments. But we all have our thoughts and opinions which makes Firenet all the richer ;D ;)
« Last Edit: September 14, 2013, 02:56:01 AM by Just Midders »

Offline Tom Sutton

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Re: Site Responsible Person
« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2013, 09:05:22 AM »
I will go along with that Midders its all about interpretation and we will have wait for legal precedence, if ever.  ;D

Sorry chrpay if I hijacked your thread but I think your query was answered within the fire page. :'(
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline AnthonyB

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Re: Site Responsible Person
« Reply #32 on: September 15, 2013, 08:47:48 PM »
It's not me you are disagreeing with, I merely stated what enforcement officers are often churning out in respect of multi-occupancies from experience, rightly or wrongly. And some have tried to stick the landlord/agent for thing's that actually aren't their responsibility when they should have gone for several different RP's
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Offline chrpay

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Re: Site Responsible Person
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2013, 07:49:32 AM »
I am very grateful for the comments......

The tenant is wanting Landlord to discharge duties that are impossible to deliver as they are not on site 24/7.

FRAs have been done to for common parts and are suitable and sufficient albeit Art 22 needs work to ensure tenants play ball (well one of the tenants).

If Tom Sutton could steer me to "fire page" it would help.

Offline Tom Sutton

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Re: Site Responsible Person
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2013, 09:41:46 AM »
Sorry chrpay its a typo, should have read first page. (of this thread) How you get RP's to conform to art 22 I do not know other than to involve the FRS, which I am sure you do not want to do, but in there lies the answer.
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline nearlythere

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Re: Site Responsible Person
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2013, 10:26:05 AM »
I am very grateful for the comments......

The tenant is wanting Landlord to discharge duties that are impossible to deliver as they are not on site 24/7.

FRAs have been done to for common parts and are suitable and sufficient albeit Art 22 needs work to ensure tenants play ball (well one of the tenants).

If Tom Sutton could steer me to "fire page" it would help.
What are the duties the occupier wants the LL do chrpay?
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline chrpay

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Re: Site Responsible Person
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2013, 12:38:14 PM »
We hold....or are invited to...."user group meetings"

Fire and H&S on agenda......and we take it from there.

Evacuation strategies "honed" in this environment and tested by drills. Mostly works ok subject to the odd "learning point" that arises

Working relationships built up tiron out any challenges.

Fire Authority have indicated that it is a way to apply principles of Art 22.

One occupier seems to think Landlord should have representative on site 24/7 and take lead at fire evacuation.

Offline nearlythere

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Re: Site Responsible Person
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2013, 01:25:59 PM »
One occupier seems to think Landlord should have representative on site 24/7 and take lead at fire evacuation.

I suppose you could create a new post of onsite RP. 4 persons each doing 42hr shift. On minimum wage that should be around £55,000 at the very least. Divide that by the number of occupiers and you have your professional onsite RP 24/7,

or, slap the idiot about a bit until he sees sense (not really recommended),

or, as Tom says you could consult F&RS regarding co-operation and co-ordination.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline Tom Sutton

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Re: Site Responsible Person
« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2013, 02:19:17 PM »
Chrpay check out art 15. - (1) The responsible person must - (a) establish and, where necessary, give effect to appropriate procedures, including safety drills, to be followed in the event of serious and imminent danger to relevant persons;

To me that says the RP's have to establish an evacuation procedure, in the event of a fire and test it, not the owner or his representative. Ask them where in the order does it say the owner has any responsibilities.
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Midland Retty

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Re: Site Responsible Person
« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2013, 05:54:47 PM »
we will have wait for legal precedence, if ever.  ;D


But we won't my dear Thomas - the Order is quite clear on this, legal precedence is not required.

To answer your question (which I missed first time round) all of the multi-occs I have ever dealt with have had a fire risk assessment for the communal areas completed by the landlord or their managing agents (or atleast they have completed one after my intervention)

Only once have I encountered a multi-occ where one of the tenants have been named specifically in the terms of the lease as responsible for communal areas as they occupied / rented 98 % of the building, with another couple of sole traders renting two very small offices on the ground floor. It began life as simply one occupier renting the entire building.

So why is that so rare? It's common sense - If all the tenants are made collectively responsible for the communal areas (through the terms of their individual leases) then you can soon see the amount of squabbles that would ensue. It would get incredibly complex in large multi occs

Who has the lion's share in terms of decision making? Who is going to take time out of their busy schedule to phone around getting quotes to arrange for the communal heating to be fixed for example ? One occupier might do something that occupiers object to.Its just not practical. Furthermore the landlord won't want people knocking his or her building about without permission, or making repairs that are substandard or not to their liking, so that is why finding a multi occ where  tenants are fully responsible for communal areas is extremely rare.

If I'm renting office space in a multi-occ then part of the rent I pay will include service charges for the upkeep of the building. This is normally divided between all tenants proportionately.The landlord will then use that to maintain the building - so say if the heating or the  fire alarm packs up I pick up the phone, report it to landlord and he has it repaired.

In the space I rent I exercise a certain level of control over what takes place in there. I can't alter the building without permission as I don't own it.

I can control my stock, my staff, production levels, in the space I rent / occupy - But  I don't have any control over Joe Blogg's mob who works down the corridor who share the communal areas of the building with us - So if they start storing boxes in the communal corridor I could go and have a word and ask them to shift them, but they could in turn tell me to "go away".

Instead I would call the landlord and get them to deal with it -  because they own the building and can exert full control over the communal area and what goes on in there. Non of the tenants are fully in control of the communal areas - they exert control in their own occupancies not communal areas

Look at the definition of responsible person again, and look at what it states about levels of control. As a tenant you will agree I have no control over the communal areas and therefore by default cannot be the responsible person for them.

If Joe Bloggs blocks the communal means of escape with his boxes of fireworks, and my employees are put at risk then yes as a responsible person (because I am a employer) I would need to take some form of action to protect my staff.

But that action may mean I have to send my workforce home for the day until the means of escape issue has been dealt with because for example Mr Bloggs is most unreasonable and doesn't like being told to shift his boxes by the likes of me so i have to wait for the landlord to intervene!.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 05:59:14 PM by Just Midders »

Offline colin todd

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Re: Site Responsible Person
« Reply #40 on: September 16, 2013, 08:09:55 PM »
Retters, if the premises are a workplace the RP doers not have to have control. he is unconditionally responsible for the safety of his employees, and the workplace includes the means of access to, and egress from, the workplace.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline Tom Sutton

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Re: Site Responsible Person
« Reply #41 on: September 16, 2013, 08:41:47 PM »
Midders it cannot be that clear if we are still arguing about it.

As I have suggest before, check the definition of a workplace it includes the common area, staircases until you reach the public road and that is how far the RP's FRA should extend. My opinions are based purely on the order and not on practical considerations so I intend to call it a day as we will continue to go around in circles. I rest my case m'lord on previous submissions. :-*
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Midland Retty

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Re: Site Responsible Person
« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2013, 10:24:09 PM »
Retters, if the premises are a workplace the RP doers not have to have control. he is unconditionally responsible for the safety of his employees, and the workplace includes the means of access to, and egress from, the workplace.

Yes he is and I acknowledge that Sir Col in my previous post.... but accordingly you will agree RPs have varying levels of control especially in multi occ scenarios!

So come on uncle Col you tell me then... is it or is it not true that landlords can be an RP of the communal areas for which  I am trying to show the good Mr Sutton can be the case...or not? Can a landlord not be an RP of the communal areas Sir Col?

Midland Retty

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Re: Site Responsible Person
« Reply #43 on: September 16, 2013, 10:26:19 PM »
Midders it cannot be that clear if we are still arguing about it.

As I have suggest before, check the definition of a workplace it includes the common area, staircases until you reach the public road and that is how far the RP's FRA should extend. My opinions are based purely on the order and not on practical considerations so I intend to call it a day as we will continue to go around in circles. I rest my case m'lord on previous submissions. :-*

Oh Tom really! Ok not to worry I tried just remember that !  ;D ;D

Offline colin todd

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Re: Site Responsible Person
« Reply #44 on: September 16, 2013, 10:38:23 PM »
Retters, the common parts of a multi occ office are a workplace by virtue of being the means of access to or egress from the workplace.  If the premises are a workplace, the RP is the employer, which potentially means every tenant. It is only if the premises are not a workplace that the RP is the PHC.
The landlord is potentially an A5(3) person by virtue of control which means he has same duties as the RP (to the extent of his control) but he is not the RP-he is a person with responsibilities or a duty holder to use the much more sensible scottish terminology.  Anyway , Retters what do you care, you should be gearing up for coming out with the bruvvers, overthrowing democracy and causing rivers of blood on the streets.  The revolution is nigh, Retters, so stop worrying about this rather dull fire safety and protecting the public stuff.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates