Author Topic: Licensed premises  (Read 10237 times)

Offline firescot10

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Licensed premises
« on: September 11, 2013, 04:36:08 PM »
Ladies and Gents,
A quick querie please! Have started working in 'civvy' street for an FM company based in London, after 22 years in the RAF. My last few years were as the units fire safety officer, completing FRA's to Queens reg standards(in line with the RRO). During this process I could decide on future inspection timescales, usually between 1 and 3 years.
The company I now work for own several bars in airports and train stations, along with shops with a license to sell alcohol. They are adamant that their licensed premises require an annual FRA, but surely this is up to the competent person completing the risk assessment (ie-me!!), weighing up all the risks and control measures in place?
Your thoughts on this subject would be most welcome.

Regards to all.

Firescot

Offline nearlythere

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Re: Licensed premises
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2013, 04:48:33 PM »
Ladies and Gents,
A quick querie please! Have started working in 'civvy' street for an FM company based in London, after 22 years in the RAF. My last few years were as the units fire safety officer, completing FRA's to Queens reg standards(in line with the RRO). During this process I could decide on future inspection timescales, usually between 1 and 3 years.
The company I now work for own several bars in airports and train stations, along with shops with a license to sell alcohol. They are adamant that their licensed premises require an annual FRA, but surely this is up to the competent person completing the risk assessment (ie-me!!), weighing up all the risks and control measures in place?
Your thoughts on this subject would be most welcome.

Regards to all.

Firescot
What they need Firescot, like everyone else, is a FRA which must be reviewed periodically so as to keep it up to date. I thought it was only the cowboys who advised that FRAs had to be done annually and by the same person each time.
Legislation says periodically. Guidance gives a list of circumstances when it should be done and "periodically" is not mentioned. IOs in my area like to see it done maybe twice a year even though there may be nothing to record. They see it as the RP managing the Assessment.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 05:06:22 PM by nearlythere »
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Offline Phoenix

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Re: Licensed premises
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2013, 09:30:51 PM »
The optimum period between inspections depends on a number of factors but, typically, many people default to once per year.  If your employer has made a management decision to carry out the inspections once per year then that is up to them.  Either they have been provided with sound advice to adopt this policy or they have defaulted to it out of ignorance. 

Now, either you can trust their judgement or you can establish why this period is inappropriate and present your evidence to them in an effort to make the process more cost effective.

In making your judgement as to what might be the most appropriate time period between inspections you might consider some or all of the following (not an exhaustive list and in no particular order):

Staff turnover
Management turnover
Fire safety policy implementation
Increased vulnerability in assembly buildings
Fire safety management
Fire safety awareness by the staff
High risk processes
The complexity of the existing fire safety control measures
The effectiveness of the existing fire safety control measures
How heavily reliant the overall fire safety strategy is upon those control measures
Fire safety system maintenance programmes

In short, you have to consider not only how safe the building is when you inspect it but also, how likely it is to remain safe over the period until the next inspection. 

For example, there would be few buildings that any fire risk assessor would say did not need to be inspected more than once every three years.  Three years is a long period of time and it is easy to visualise many faults arising during that period.  On the other hand, not many buildings need to be regularly inspected once every six months because there is not usually enough change within that time frame to make subsequent visits worthwhile.

A lot of companies adopt once per year for higher life risk buildings such as assembly buildings, care homes, etc and once every two years for lower risk buildings such as offices or showrooms.  It's simple and it appears to fit the bill.  Note that shops and bars would, in general, tend to be in the annual inspection category of most companies.

Stu


Offline AnthonyB

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Re: Licensed premises
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2013, 10:56:48 PM »
As stated there is nothing set in stone, but I've seen a fair number of notices and some cases where an 'insufficiently revisited' FRA was part of the action and in all those those that were time based (as oppose to having made a change) they all referred to 12 months as being the maximum interval.

Note this is for a review, not a full reassessment and if nothing has changed and PPM's are still current then a statement appended to the front of the original FRA to that effect setting the next review date should suffice - several tenants audited today were using this system - original FRA, Review sheets, with a supporting PPM log book and fire safety checklists.
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Offline kurnal

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Re: Licensed premises
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2013, 08:57:59 AM »
I believe some licensing authorities overstep their legal powers and responsibilities under the licensing act and ask to see annual updates for the FRA, fire alarm, emergency lighting and electrical installations.

Offline Phoenix

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Re: Licensed premises
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2013, 09:47:34 AM »
In my experience, you're right kurnal.  I believe that a mixture of ignorance, lack of confidence and the desire for an easy ride are the root causes within the licensing authorities.

Offline nearlythere

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Re: Licensed premises
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2013, 09:52:00 AM »
I believe some licensing authorities overstep their legal powers and responsibilities under the licensing act and ask to see annual updates for the FRA, fire alarm, emergency lighting and electrical installations.
Empire building seems to be the way forward. A newish enforcement authority over here has been requiring establishments to carry out "quarterly testing" of their fire alarm system and annual "PAT" testing. Clearly such advice is misleading, confusing and potentially dangerous and demonstrates a failure to understand codes of practice.
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Offline firescot10

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Re: Licensed premises
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2013, 10:04:05 AM »
Thank you for the responses, and I will query the companies decision to go with annual. It has probably been down to the influence of previous fire safety companies that they have used in the past, who are more 'commercia'l led, rather than 'common sense'.
The companies fire safety training is good(full review to be carried out by myself in the near future) and individual unit managers carry out 6 monthly 'mini-fra' reviews on their premises, any maintenance or compliance issues are reported directly to the companies own maintenance team for resolution, so the up keep of the premises is usually good.
I have always used my individual judgement concerning future dates for a new FRA to be issued, and dont like the set in stone approach I have come across in the past. My last military unit had a maintenance hanger for large aircraft, with over 300 personnel working in it, and a total loss value of over £2 billion.....I set a three yearly inspection schedule due to all the fire safety controls in place, and the training that the staff recieved  :o

Offline Mike Buckley

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Re: Licensed premises
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2013, 09:49:00 AM »
Yes I agree with kurnal, I have come across one licencing authority that visits a hotel just before the licence is due t be renewed and asks for various actions to be carried out. The hotel has to do them because the authority will not renew the licence if they don't, and the hotel can't appeal due to the timescale.

I know we moan about some inspecting officers, but at least they have some fire background. Some of the others such as housing officers and licencing officers do not appear have any and are enforcing under different acts with no regard to the FSO. It is probably too much to ask the government to sort this mess out.
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Offline nearlythere

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Re: Licensed premises
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2013, 10:45:34 AM »
It is probably too much to ask the government to sort this mess out.
Does it know it exists?
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Offline nearlythere

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Re: Licensed premises
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2013, 10:48:36 AM »
And one authority had recorded in an audit that a "follow up" to the Fire Risk Assessment had not been carried out.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2013, 10:55:02 AM by nearlythere »
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Offline Mike Buckley

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Re: Licensed premises
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2013, 11:38:31 AM »
Or, more to the point, does it care?
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Offline nearlythere

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Re: Licensed premises
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2013, 11:42:38 AM »
Thank you for the responses, and I will query the companies decision to go with annual. It has probably been down to the influence of previous fire safety companies that they have used in the past, who are more 'commercia'l led, rather than 'common sense'.

I'm sure, Firescot, you are saying that that particular company's decision could have been influenced by another who are "commercial" led.  ;)

I know of one particular business which is most definitely losing money and work by giving proper advice and many more who most likely operate the same way.  :-*
« Last Edit: September 13, 2013, 11:53:30 AM by nearlythere »
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Offline firescot10

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Re: Licensed premises
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2013, 12:35:06 PM »
Perish the thought!! ;) As I am a relative newcomer to the company, my first couple of years will be taken up with ensuring FRA compliance with all their outlets, all 800 of them. The 'rocking the boat' phase will come later  :)

Offline nearlythere

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Re: Licensed premises
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2013, 12:57:09 PM »
Perish the thought!! ;) As I am a relative newcomer to the company, my first couple of years will be taken up with ensuring FRA compliance with all their outlets, all 800 of them. The 'rocking the boat' phase will come later  :)
Good man. Have you opened a slate yet in the Banter Bar? All of ours are getting full so see the Barsteward and get one sorted asap please. And whilst you're at the bar .........................
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.