Means of escape for resturant staff sleeping above a Restaurant

[Suttonfire]

Hi,

I would appreciate some advise please.

In a situation where the staff in for a small restaurant sleep in the rooms above it. Is it allowable for their escape route to be routed through the restaurant on the ground floor? Provided that compartmentation is adequate (they are not required to pass the kitchen, which is enclosed within a fire resisting structure and fire doors, and the ground to first floor stairs are compartmented by self closing 30 minute fire doors and fire resisting structures).

Any help or guidance appreciated. Any references to appropriate guidance would be great.

[nearlythere]

Hi,

I would appreciate some advise please.

In a situation where the staff in for a small restaurant sleep in the rooms above it. Is it allowable for their escape route to be routed through the restaurant on the ground floor? Provided that compartmentation is adequate (they are not required to pass the kitchen, which is enclosed within a fire resisting structure and fire doors, and the ground to first floor stairs are compartmented by self closing 30 minute fire doors and fire resisting structures).

Any help or guidance appreciated. Any references to appropriate guidance would be great.

Bit difficult to pick out the layout as you decribe Pheonix. When you say their escape route is through the restaurant do you mean by way of a protected route to a final exit rather than an unenclosed stairway into the restaurant?

[Suttonfire]

Its an enclosed stairway that discharges to the restaurant dining/bar area on the ground floor. A self closing 30 minute fire door has been fitted to the bottom of the stairs at ground floor level and the doors to the bedroom are self closing FD30S.

The kitchen is at the rear of the restaurant area on the ground floor and people (accessed via fire doors and fire resisting construction).

The local fire officer has instructed that an additional escape stairs should be constructed, but I can not find where the current scenario is prohibited under current guidance. Would you consider that the restaurant area on the ground floor forms part of a protected escape route? Given that it is compartmented from the stairs and the kitchen?

[The Colonel]

is there any fire alarm with automatic detection.

[Suttonfire]

Yes - L2 coverage. All devices (in both bedrooms and restaurant linked to a single control panel). Linked sounders set to give warning throughout the building.

Only a small number of staff currently sleep in the rooms, would you say that the compensatory measures are adequate, so as not to require the construction of an alternative escape route?

[nearlythere]

Its an enclosed stairway that discharges to the restaurant dining/bar area on the ground floor. A self closing 30 minute fire door has been fitted to the bottom of the stairs at ground floor level and the doors to the bedroom are self closing FD30S.

The kitchen is at the rear of the restaurant area on the ground floor and people (accessed via fire doors and fire resisting construction).

The local fire officer has instructed that an additional escape stairs should be constructed, but I can not find where the current scenario is prohibited under current guidance. Would you consider that the restaurant area on the ground floor forms part of a protected escape route? Given that it is compartmented from the stairs and the kitchen?

What you appear to have is an escape route from the first floor sleeping risk which does not lead to a final exit via a protected route. You might have trouble convincing the EA that smoke detection in the restaurant and elsewhere is an adequate control measure. If you can't have an inner room sleeping risk to an access room on the same level what chance different levels.
I think K might have been involved in a similar problem.
Can you provide an additional escape out of the stairway at ground floor level into an area which is separated from the restaurant and from which has an alternative final escape?

[Suttonfire]

Unfortunately it will not be practical to install an exit from the stairs at ground floor level. My thinking is that the compartmentation in place, combined with the fire alarm system coverage, and that a small number of staff infrequently sleep in the rooms might make the current setup acceptable.

I am giving this careful consideration and would appreciate any other views. I guess a lot depends on whether it could be argued that the dining area at the foot of the internal stairs could represent a protected section of the escape route due to is separation from adjoining compartments. Anyone think that this could reasonably be argued?

Thanks

[TFEM]

I don't normally get involved in this sort of thing but I have become quite pally with someone who owns a couple of restaurants of an oriental leaning who also has staff living above the kitchen. The MOE from the first floor descends into a corridor outside the kitchen which has a fire door, 60 minutes I believe. I suspect however that this door is wedged open most of the time as there are freezers and stock stored in the corridor at the bottom of the stairs although they don't block the final exit.
When I last saw him, I recommended him to get a FRA done asap.....I suspect this hasn't been done.
I'm concerned that our "arrangement" of "I'll scratch your back and you feed me soft shell crab" could be seriously in jeopardy.
What sort of compartmentation should we be looking at to provide a protected escape? What about the ceiling above the kitchen?
Christ, it looks even worse when it's all written down! I think I need to make a friendly visit. Should I forget our friendship and perhaps be cruel to be kind?
John

[nearlythere]

Unfortunately it will not be practical to install an exit from the stairs at ground floor level. My thinking is that the compartmentation in place, combined with the fire alarm system coverage, and that a small number of staff infrequently sleep in the rooms might make the current setup acceptable.

I am giving this careful consideration and would appreciate any other views. I guess a lot depends on whether it could be argued that the dining area at the foot of the internal stairs could represent a protected section of the escape route due to is separation from adjoining compartments. Anyone think that this could reasonably be argued?

Thanks

But the dining room is not a protected route Suttonfire. It may be separated from adjoining compartments but it is, in itself, a room and an access room to an upper level at that. It might be acceptable to the EA if you had an alternative which may not necessarily need to be a protected route but should be at least separated from the dining room.

It is about your client convincing the EA that your escape "room" is as safe as a protected route and maybe possibly with full afd, negligible fire risk, limited travel distance along with good information and training to upper floor occupiers might be an acceptable control measure.
Personally, I think you could for a non sleeping risk but as a sleeping risk I have my doubts. I'm not saying I would rule it out completely but it's not me you have to convince.

[Phoenix]

Bit difficult to pick out the layout as you decribe Pheonix. When you say their escape route is through the restaurant do you mean by way of a protected route to a final exit rather than an unenclosed stairway into the restaurant?

How did I get roped into this!?

Anyway, now that I'm implicated, wot NT says...

Suttonfire, you don't quite seem to have got the correct idea of what NT is suggesting.  It is not acceptable to have an escape route through the seating area of the restaurant when that is the only route out.  However, if there is a way out the back of the restaurant and if that route is completely fire separated from the seating area route to the front then the people making their escape during a fire will have a choice of which way to go when they get to the bottom of the staircase.  If the fire's in the seating area then they can go out the back and if the fire's on the rear escape route then they can leave via the seating area to the front.  This solution would require fire resisting enclosure at the bottom of the staircase and it is sometimes difficult, in existing buildings, to get this to comply with the recommendations of Approved Document K.  Also, as already stated, this solution would require a line of fire resistance through the building separating the front and the rear routes.

Various fire services have (rightly) issued prohibition notices in similar cases to what you describe but they may find it a little more difficult to do this if the sleeping rooms have escape windows.  The niceties are all a little subjective but what is clear cut is that it is not acceptable for the escape route from a sleeping room to be through a restaurant (irrespective of the number of detectors or the separation of the kitchen).

Stu

[nearlythere]

Bit difficult to pick out the layout as you decribe Pheonix. When you say their escape route is through the restaurant do you mean by way of a protected route to a final exit rather than an unenclosed stairway into the restaurant?

How did I get roped into this!?

Anyway, now that I'm implicated, wot NT says...

Suttonfire, you don't quite seem to have got the correct idea of what NT is suggesting.  It is not acceptable to have an escape route through the seating area of the restaurant when that is the only route out.  However, if there is a way out the back of the restaurant and if that route is completely fire separated from the seating area route to the front then the people making their escape during a fire will have a choice of which way to go when they get to the bottom of the staircase.  If the fire's in the seating area then they can go out the back and if the fire's on the rear escape route then they can leave via the seating area to the front.  This solution would require fire resisting enclosure at the bottom of the staircase and it is sometimes difficult, in existing buildings, to get this to comply with the recommendations of Approved Document K.  Also, as already stated, this solution would require a line of fire resistance through the building separating the front and the rear routes.

Various fire services have (rightly) issued prohibition notices in similar cases to what you describe but they may find it a little more difficult to do this if the sleeping rooms have escape windows.  The niceties are all a little subjective but what is clear cut is that it is not acceptable for the escape route from a sleeping room to be through a restaurant (irrespective of the number of detectors or the separation of the kitchen).

Stu

Don't know why I mentioned you Pheonix. You English people all sound the same to me.

[nearlythere]

Suttonfire.
Is there a plan available of the layout?

[nearlythere]

Perhaps this might help?

Pub chain and licensee prosecuted by Cheshire Fire and Rescue Service

The landlord and licensee of a Warrington pub have been prosecuted for failing to put in place adequate fire safety measures. Landlord of the Rams Head Inn in Grappenhall, Punch Partnerships PML Ltd (Punch Taverns) and the licensee at the time Graham Dennett, 61 of Barnswood Close in Grappenhall, both appeared before Warrington Magistrates on Thursday, October 24, where they pleaded guilty to failing to comply with the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005.

The case began back on August 5 2011 when a fire involving a tumble dryer broke out at the Rams Head Inn in Grappenhall. As with all incidents at commercial premises Cheshire Fire and Rescue Service carried out a post fire inspection at the premises. The inspection identified issues with fire safety, including the absence of an appropriate fire exit from the first floor guest and staff accommodation.

[Suttonfire]

Thank you all for your views on this. I will try and get hold of some plans and post them up.

[Midland Retty]

Are there any windows in the bedrooms that could be used for escape? - don't get me wrong far from ideal but would probably stop fire authority issuing a prohibition.

Also you mention the kitchen. Do you have to go into the dining room to access it?

As the others have said you should not have to walk through the dining room to get out - if the fire occurs in that area the staff will be trapped.

The suggestion by the FO to "put in" an external staircase is going to be a non starter - it would suggest its goint to be too costly and besides it would need to be enclosed these days under building regs.

Without seeing the place it is difficult to comment but I think unless you can create a pukka protected route by robbing space from dining room to form a corridor which leads to a final exit, or consider the window escape option (if applicable and subject to the regs governing size / height of escape windows being satisfied) you are going to be looking at some very expensive and prohibitive solutions to try and put this problem right.