Charging businesses for false alarm calls

[Tom Sutton]

West Yorkshire Fire Service consults over charging businesses for false alarm calls I suspect courtesy of the Localism Bill 2013. How many will follow as a solution to UWFS?

http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news/west-yorkshire-fire-service-consults-4883577

[nearlythere]

Well, if it was a false alarm why did they go?

[colin todd]

I dont know, Tam, how many?

[Tom Sutton]

I dont know, Tam, how many?

I don't know but your favorite FRS London, also Devon & Somerset and Merseyside are considering it, I suspect there are more.

[colin todd]

The Act limits the circumstances under which they can charge.

[AnthonyB]

Personally I'd rather them charge than not attend at all, where education fails, invoices might persuade greater action by RP's and the nightmare of someone dying due to an overstrict non attendance policy avoided.

[Tom Sutton]

The Act limits the circumstances under which they can charge.

Agreed, Under the coalition's Localism Act, Fire and Rescue Authorities will be given the right consider charging for attendance at false fire alarms which have been set off by malfunctioning or "misinstalled" warning equipment.

http://www.fia.uk.com/en/Information/Details/index.cfm/Govt-brings-forward-false-alarm-charging-rulings

[colin todd]

And of course, as you know Tam, riding a fire engine for years gives one the expertise to determine whether a complex electronic system malfunctioned, so they will be able to raise charges on the basis of that expertise.

[Tom Sutton]

Col you do not need a bishop from Edinburgh University, fire engineering faculty to determine if a false alarm was due to a human or animal, activating of the fire alarm, accidentally or deliberately. Discount that and you are left with malfunctioning or misinstalled warning equipment. You do not need to know what malfunctioned; the fire alarm engineer can work that one out, usually at the time of the turnout.

[Mike Buckley]

I would have thought the answer is easy, the Fire Brigades charge every time they turn out and then people who actually have a fire can apply for a refund. Simples!

[colin todd]

Tam, if challenged in court is that what they will say. I have no idea what malfunctioned your honour but I know it malfunctioned.  A lfase alarm is no a system malfunction, Tam, it is more commonly the case that the system functioned entirely correctly or as the technology was bound to perform , so there is nothing for the fire alarm engineer to work out.

[jokar]

Nothing to it.  You can have as many false alarms in a premises as you like.  Manage them in house and deal with the complex technology through a fire engineer.

Just do not pass on that false alarm to the fire service as it may charge for the attendance of a fire engine as it will be considered as an unwanted fire signal.  There is plenty of opportunity to ensure that the false alarm is not forwarded by the managers and the people who work at an Arc.

Be assurred that a call to a fire will always receive an attendance from the FRS.

[Tom Sutton]

The point I am trying to make Colin is about elimination, if it is not human or animal intervention or misinstalled equipment it must be a malfunction of the system. If it is more commonly the case that the system functioned entirely correctly or as the technology was bound to perform, then it would be identified as one of the other causes. I also believe it would be quite acceptable to tell the beak “I have no idea what malfunctioned it is the only possible cause as the others have been eliminated”, however the defence may delve a little deeper to prove it wasn’t a malfunction but I doubt it, considering a fine of £350 (the fine WYFRS is considering).

[Mike Buckley]

Surely the question is coming down to what is a false alarm?

Outside someone activating an manual call point, the fire alarm system has detected something its programming tells it, is a fire. It only becomes a false alarm when someone goes to the location of the alarm and cannot find a fire.

The only way round this is to stop calling the fire brigade until someone has actually gone and investigated the alarm. This is fine for premises where there is a team  present on site 24/7. Outside that what do you do? Alert a member of staff to turn out in the middle of the night or use a company to come and investigate (attendance time 2 hours?).

It seems to me that the brigades are jumping on a band waggon to crack a nut with a sledge hammer. Yes if a system is badly maintained then it will be going into alarm more frequently, which will show up statistics as the original CFOA guidance specified,  then look at taking action, whether this is immediate fine or a visit from an officer.

[colin todd]

Tam, the point is that very commonly it is not known if there was human intervention or an environmental cause or electromagnitic interference or steam that has long ago dispersed or someone having a cigarette elicitly, or an electrical storm in the area. Malfunctions of equipent causing false alarms are rare and often impossible to prove (unless you have been to lots of fires in England, and then you will be a world authority). But all these other causes such as human stupidity or lack of control of premises which is the cause of most false alarms cannot be charged for, so it is all so much hot air really.