Purpose Built Flats

[jakespop]

I have been asked to assess common parts of a two storey purpose built block of flats. Small building with two flats on each floor with common stairwell access.Built in 1971. Flats individually owned. Management company looks after common areas. No fire alarm in common areas, each owner responsible for their own detection so some have battery, some have mains.
The LGA guide would seem to suggest that no alarm reqd in common areas, just ensure structural separation is adequate.
I tend to think that a mains powered interlinked system should be installed in stairwell connected to heat detector in each flat.
LGA guide suggests that a part 1 system should be installed, if any.

I would appreciate any comments from learned colleagues.

[wee brian]

Why do you "tend to think" that you need a common alarm?

[jakespop]

The flats were built in late 1970's, of substantial construction. The doors are original with no strips or seals, to a 30 minute standard in my estimation. I am considering asking for doors to be upgraded/replaced and follow LGA guidance for detection within flats, dispensing with alarm in common area.

[AnthonyB]

My way of thinking (others are of course available!)

Using the LGA Guide then as long as the doors are the original notional 30 minute doors (e.g. 20 or 30 minutes with inch rebates and no seals) with no alterations or damage and the location of letterboxes is adequate and you have openable windows to the stairs, then from a communal/FSO point of view you don't really need to change anything if it's as small as you state. I assume the other elements of structure are sound of course.

FD30S would be nice, as would emergency lighting, but more of a recommendation than a necessity if you use the benchmark guidance.

Likewise a self contained part 6 system to each flat for the life safety of the occupant would be strongly recommended, but to some extent this would be under the control of each householder.

A communal fire system isn't an answer as there isn't the control over the occupiers (presumably all private individuals) or communal site staff (concierge or similar) to manage it, it will be a false alarm/vandalism nightmare and unless you go for the near useless communal only set up with no sounder or sounder/detector provision in the flats there will be the civil law/property law nightmare of gaining access for maintenance purposes that dogs some modern developments with individual residential sprinkler systems to each flat as part of the fire strategy. There are sound reasons why communal alarms (beyond L5 to actuate a smoke management system and that's L5 without the /M so no sounders or red MCP's thank you) are a last resort.

Of course an supplier/installer (I'm not inferring this is you by the way!) could have a field day and you could install:
- L3 communal system to BS5839-1
- LD3 system to each flat to BS5839-6
- New FD30S doorsets (new frame, leaf and ironmongery) to each flat
- Full emergency lighting to BS5266
- Fire exit directional signage, fire action signage and fire equipment signage (all photoluminescent of course!)
- The obligatory 6 litre Foam extinguisher to each landing, with a 2 kilo CO2 if you can swing it as well!
You sometimes see this!

[jokar]

If you did not know the answer to this simple premises have you considered your future?

[Golden]

 I believe Jokar's solution should be seriously considered.

[jakespop]

Thanks you Golden and Jokar for your constructive comments. Whilst I was going to forget this thread and your comments I feel that I need to have the right of reply.
Whilst I probably did not explain the issue as well as I could have( big fingers, small keys and on the move) the question was raised in good faith. There is always more than one answer and I thank those who responded so positively.
I do feel that it is unfortunate and unnecessary to make personal comments without  having more background knowledge . If you knew more, you would appreciate, I hope, that your comments are unfair as well as unnecessary. Such personal attacks may be expected on Facebook and other internet sites, but surprised it takes place on a professional forum like this one.

However, I think it is probably better to draw a line under this one and wish everyone on this forum a Happy Xmas and prosperous New Year.

[Golden]

Jakespop there has been a lot of discussion on these forums regarding competence over the past few years and the area of purpose built flats and fire detection systems has also been extensively discussed on Firenet as well as in other professional arenas. It is for these reasons I endorsed Jokar's comment - I believe this forum is for discussing topical fire safety issues but when you raise a question about the most basic of risk assessments, that I'm assuming you are charging a client to carry out, I don't feel too inclined to comment positively. Could I ask why you feel that you are competent in carrying out such a risk assessment when peoples lives are at stake?

The responsible person is legally bound to ensure any assistance given is by a competent person and there has been one instance of a fire risk assessor being imprisoned because of poor advice - in that case the RP was also jailed for his part.

[nearlythere]

Tis the season of good will to all men people.

May I wish all on the forum a very merry Xmas  and a happy and prosperous new year.

[Golden]

NT that's a bit off topic - maybe you should start another thread?? 

[kurnal]

I hope all feel welcome to use the forum and members will continue to help and support each other with good humour and bon ami.

We all may have a blind spot from time to time and cant see the wood for the trees. Sometimes it helps to view a members previous posts to gain perspectve and insight.  I speak from personal experience. It is not good for the forum to insult each other!

When operating in a sector you are normally not exposed to it can be difficult to apply proportionality to your assessments. If as a completely hypothetical example you were employed as hospital fire officer and asked to assess a small residential block that had been purchased for doctors living accommodation you may well come up with a safe solution but this may be out of proportion to the level of risk involved.

[colin todd]

I saw lots of wood and trees in Surrey, this last few days, Big Al.  Mostly blocking the roads.

[BLEVE]

Too be fair, it is okay to be asked to assess a premises, but it is important to know your own limitations, particularly when life can be at risk due to your assessment/conclusion.

If you had to ask the question in the OP, then perhaps you should question your ability to complete the task asked of you in the first instance??

 

[colin todd]

I think I can see boiling liquid's point.

[wee brian]

The trick with this forum, is to ask your question in a way that doesn't imply you have no idea what you are doing.

There is a school of thought, that suggests that the wider use of Mixed alarm systems in blocks of flats is something we could do more of.  (that's self contained alarms in each flats, plus a common system that has heat detectors in entrance halls etc.)

I'm not sure I'm in that particular school but your less likely to get a load of stick from the other members of the forum than asking about a specific job you are doing.

Fire safety is an imprecise subject - if truth be known - we're all making it up (a bit)