Grade A and beyond

[David Rooney]

A generalised question men....

Very large property, basement to first, approximately 60 rooms in total - building is around 60x20m.

Technically a single family occupancy however there is staff accommodation and also 4 bedrooms to be used by VIP guests on occasion.

Regarding designing a fire detection and alarm system, is it reasonable to spec a pt6 Grade A LD2 system throughout with 75dB at the bedhead in all bedrooms including the visitors/staff bedrooms and providing "minimal" sounders though out the general house hold?

(I realise the family bedrooms would only need 85dB at the door)

Or because of the obligation to protect staff (and maybe visitors) should we be looking for 60/65dB throughout the general living areas in which case we may as well spec a pt 1 L2 system ....??

On a similar vein, would Part M apply to all the WCs likely to be used by staff/visitors - ie. sounder beacons in all toilets??

Many thanks

[Dinnertime Dave]

A bit confused on the single family occupancy bit with staff and visitors. If it is purely a single family occupancy then pt 6 makes some recommendations on homes over 200m².

However, I would think based on the limited information it sounds like the fire safety order applies.

[David Rooney]

The place employs one full time butler and a maid.

Should that mean "65dB" throughout and treat the house like a Hotel ??

[Dinnertime Dave]

The place employs one full time butler and a maid.

Should that mean "65dB" throughout and treat the house like a Hotel ??

Perhaps not then, I refer to my first paragraph.

[nearlythere]

Who are the VIP guests? Is the situation like when we all invite friends to visit and stay overnight?

[wee brian]

I was sure there was something that said that domestic staff dont cause a premises to become non-domestic.  But now I can't find it 

[nearlythere]

I was sure there was something that said that domestic staff dont cause a premises to become non-domestic.  But now I can't find it 

Thats what I thought WB and it has been covered in the past. They come under H&S@W as employees but the premises are still a private family dwelling. (Depending on who the VIP guests are).

[David Rooney]

the guests may be foreign dignitarys ....

[nearlythere]

An ambassador's or similar residence?  Senior Military? Minister's freebee weekend retreat? Bishops residence? Your house David?

[idlefire]

Part M?

Does Building Regs 2010 actually apply to this fantasy scenario David?

I personally would need much, much more information to give anything like a meaningfull response to the question.

[Mike Buckley]

I would agree with the idea that the presence of domestic staff does not change it from a domestic property as with the HSAWA. However with the guests surely the critical point is do the guests pay to stay there? or does the owner profit commercially from them staying there? (more iffy). The actual rank of the person staying there should not matter. (If it did Dotty would never be able to stay anywhere)

[nearlythere]

I was considering the place could be a private residence for a family where there was a means for accommodating others who are not paying guests and not actually friends of the family. Take the likes of Chequers which is a private residence for a family. There are times the family plays host to visiting dignitaries and others and not for gain. They may not necessarily be friends either.
I, like most others, have people staying at my private residence. They don't pay and they would be people who I invite as friends or acquaintances to stay (at my expense)
Chequers would be a similar situation where friends, acquaintances and those who become new best friends of the family would stay (again at my expense).

[Mike Buckley]

Surely Chequers and similar places will come under the general category of Crown Property.

[David Rooney]

Sorry men ... tis an Ambassador's Residence ... arguably the British Government profit from the guests that stay there although they will be non paying. !!

I was basically proposing a Grade A LD2 with 85db at the bedroom doors of the Ambo's family, 75db at everyone else's bed head - guests and staff, and no minimum alarm level set through out the remainder of the property other than being "audible" as per pt 6.

But then I thought about the implications of staff or guests being hearing impaired, hence the question of whether Part M beacons in WCs to EN54-23 is relevant and if the presence of guests whether they're paying or not, would require a minimum alarm level throughout the property ....

How far does the duty of care extend !

[Owain]

Sorry men ... tis an Ambassador's Residence ... ...
How far does the duty of care extend !

How cost-sensitive is the project?

In terms of risk

• the number and location of bedrooms may change in future, and at short notice, depending on the number of guests
• guests of this calibre may bring their own servants or security staff, who may be accommodated in non- 'guest bedrooms' or even z-beds in cupboards
• large social gatherings with people who are unfamiliar with the property
• alcohol may be taken (even in a Muslim country there may be a Communications Room to handle urgent queries about the 1969 VAT returns
• guests and visiting staff may not speak English
• smoking restrictions may not be observed
• there may be security restrictions on means of escape, and risks other than fire need to be considered, eg bomb threats
• furnishings are likely to be luxurious (high fire load) and expensive; risk to property may be substantial
• 'official things' may have to be rescued, made secure, or destroyed as part of the emergency management procedure
• injury to or death of a visitor could be extremely embarrassing

In terms of fire detection I wouldn't be thinking of anything less than would be provided for a hotel. In terms of sounders I would be looking at a full Voice Alarm system to give information and direction.