serving fire officers carrying out fire risk assessments

[Mr Ed]

Hi Community
came across this the other day and it smacked of marking your own homework.

Serving fire officers carrying out fire risk assessments in educational establishments, competency unknown, although on the IFE auditors register.

Surely this cannot be right where the F&RS are carrying out FRA's and then enforcing the same schools, where no doubt after a visit all their FRA's will be suitable and sufficient etc. with no problems etc...

Any comments/legal opinions would be interestingly received.

Thanks

[nearlythere]

NIFRS are in the process of drafting new policy on this.

[William 29]

They shouldn't be able to do FRA work in their own Brigade areas, however some mention they can do an FRA when off duty....very dodgy and a sackable offence if caught I would think.

[Dinnertime Dave]

Serving fire officers carrying out fire risk assessments in educational establishments, competency unknown, although on the IFE auditors

At least they are on the register.

They shouldn't be able to do FRA work in their own Brigade areas, however some mention they can do an FRA when off duty....very dodgy and a sackable offence if caught I would think.

Personally I agree with you William, But it is allowed in my brigade.

Look at it a different way. I am a fire risk assessor running my own company. I live in a small commuter village that has a retained fire station that is recruiting. Can I apply and if successful do I have to give up my day job.

[William 29]

Serving fire officers carrying out fire risk assessments in educational establishments, competency unknown, although on the IFE auditors

At least they are on the register.

They shouldn't be able to do FRA work in their own Brigade areas, however some mention they can do an FRA when off duty....very dodgy and a sackable offence if caught I would think.

Personally I agree with you William, But it is allowed in my brigade.

Look at it a different way. I am a fire risk assessor running my own company. I live in a small commuter village that has a retained fire station that is recruiting. Can I apply and if successful do I have to give up my day job.

Are you saying it is allowed in your own patch!? That can't be right? How can you be enforcer and assessor??

I look forward to the day when one of these appears in court and a judge gets hold of it.

[William 29]

Serving fire officers carrying out fire risk assessments in educational establishments, competency unknown, although on the IFE auditors

At least they are on the register. But as an auditor not an assessor!

They shouldn't be able to do FRA work in their own Brigade areas, however some mention they can do an FRA when off duty....very dodgy and a sackable offence if caught I would think.

Personally I agree with you William, But it is allowed in my brigade.

Look at it a different way. I am a fire risk assessor running my own company. I live in a small commuter village that has a retained fire station that is recruiting. Can I apply and if successful do I have to give up my day job.

I would guess that the application to be a retained FF would be refused on the grounds of conflict of interest? This would be even more so in a very small rural community.

[Mr Ed]

Some clarification, local authority is using serving fire officers (informed by DO) that they are charging up to 750 to carryout FRAs in their own area, mainly to schools. The LA have forced this upon schools, so in essence the FRS ARE ASSESSING AND ENFORCING, how can this be right??

[nearlythere]

Serving fire officers carrying out fire risk assessments in educational establishments, competency unknown, although on the IFE auditors

At least they are on the register. But as an auditor not an assessor!

They shouldn't be able to do FRA work in their own Brigade areas, however some mention they can do an FRA when off duty....very dodgy and a sackable offence if caught I would think.

Personally I agree with you William, But it is allowed in my brigade.

Look at it a different way. I am a fire risk assessor running my own company. I live in a small commuter village that has a retained fire station that is recruiting. Can I apply and if successful do I have to give up my day job.

I would guess that the application to be a retained FF would be refused on the grounds of conflict of interest? This would be even more so in a very small rural community.

This might be difficult William. Would an existing retained firefighter whose full time employment is a fire consultant have to give up one or the other? There is a big sticking point here in that if you accept retained firefighters as fire consultants how can you prohibit full time.

To me the solution lies with the FRSs. Police the quality of FRAs and prosecute where they are not suitable or sufficient.

[William 29]

Sorry, I just can't see how that would work in Court when an FRA has been completed by a serving officer in his own area, fire occurs, someone gets injured/killed or has the potential to do so and lets say the outcome of the FRA had a bearing on the fire in respect of quality, suitability and competency?

How does the prosecuting officer from the same Brigade move that forward? What about disclosure of information? For those of us that have been involved with a prosecution you will understand the level of detail and scrutiny that goes into the prep for these cases. How can a Fire Authority take itself to Court??

[William 29]

Some clarification, local authority is using serving fire officers (informed by DO) that they are charging up to 750 to carryout FRAs in their own area, mainly to schools. The LA have forced this upon schools, so in essence the FRS ARE ASSESSING AND ENFORCING, how can this be right??

Sounds very wrong to me.

[nearlythere]

I thought we were talking about off duty F&RS employees doing FRAs on their days off?
Is it not?

[Alec]

I might have misunderstood this but I do not see a problem with serving fire officers carrying out FRAs.
The individual will have his/her own insurance and in the event of a fire that is a direct result of a short fall in the FRA then the said individual ends up in court like everyone else regardless of which brigade he belongs to because when carrying out the FRA he is not representing his local fire authority.
I think one can over complicate this.

As for retained fire fighters if you can meet the joining requirements then it is a matter of the cover you can provide ie 50 ? 75/100% etc. not whether you?re a fire consultant, candlestick maker or a farmer? 

[nearlythere]

I might have misunderstood this but I do not see a problem with serving fire officers carrying out FRAs.
The individual will have his/her own insurance and in the event of a fire that is a direct result of a short fall in the FRA then the said individual ends up in court like everyone else regardless of which brigade he belongs to because when carrying out the FRA he is not representing his local fire authority.
I think one can over complicate this.

As for retained fire fighters if you can meet the joining requirements then it is a matter of the cover you can provide ie 50 ? 75/100% etc. not whether you?re a fire consultant, candlestick maker or a farmer? 

The view of many F&RSs Alec is that there could be a serious conflict of interest. An off duty Fire Officer carries out a FRA in a private capacity. The control measures are put in place but an outbreak of fire results in an injury or worse. The F&RS prosecute the RP/AP and the Assessor. The RP/AP pleads that he used the assistance of a serving fire officer who, because of his profession, he considered to be an expert and as such had exercised due diligence.

[Mike Buckley]

Surely the aspect has to be that if a local authority fire officer has the potential to get involved in enforcement then they should not be carrying out FRAs in the area of their brigade they are or may be involved with. This would count out most of the wholetimers working in their own brigade area as the only wholetimers who are not likely to be involved with enforcement probably won't have the interest or competence to carry out FRAs.

with regard to the FRA consultant becoming a retained fire fighter I can see no major problem in that retained fire fighters would not normally be involved in enforcement so there is no conflict of interest.

[nearlythere]

Surely the aspect has to be that if a local authority fire officer has the potential to get involved in enforcement then they should not be carrying out FRAs in the area of their brigade they are or may be involved with. This would count out most of the wholetimers working in their own brigade area as the only wholetimers who are not likely to be involved with enforcement probably won't have the interest or competence to carry out FRAs.

with regard to the FRA consultant becoming a retained fire fighter I can see no major problem in that retained fire fighters would not normally be involved in enforcement so there is no conflict of interest.

What if the FRA was carried out by a full time firefighter regardless of rank who was not in a position to be involved in enforcement? But then enforcement could involve retained or wholetime firefighters as witnesses. 

Its a difficult one to resolve and thats why I believe the only way to sort it is to prosecute those producing FRAs that are not suitable and sufficient. The RQAI (regulator for care homes in NI) have implemented a policy that it will not accept fire risk assessments from assessors who are not registered. What's wrong with this approach by all fire safety enforcement authorities?