God Bless Fire Officers - Again!

[AnthonyB]

I've got a lovely job at the moment - mid 90's conversion of two 200 year old warehouses into flats that doesn't meet ADB in any shape or form.

No brick or blockwork used beyond the outer walls construction, structure is exposed and untreated steelwork and wooden beams and flooring, all new internals are just plasterboard and stud (varying random thickness) with more holes and gaps than a colander, fire door frames held in with just PU foam  (I was almost able to shake one so it fell clean out of the 'wall' frame and door as one), strips & brushes missing from many doors (& always had been routed frame never put in), 60m corridors, no smoke control in any form (not even 1m openable windows).

Original fire alarm was to support full evac and had smokes to each flat lobby and sounders to bedrooms as well as circulation areas. Conventional system, looks like remote indicators were originally outside each flat. The fact that they used smokes not heats to the lobbies causing false alarms and that the kit & install was dubious led to the lot falling over completely 3 years ago.

New conventional system was then put in from scratch by an electrical contractor and was essentially an L4 and all the kit in the flats was disconnected and replaced by a single grade F smoke alarm, all ticked off by previous FRA.

I'm asking for a Grade A LD2 system (as per the guidance)to restore the lobby cover and provision of 85dB outside bedroom doors, however the first reaction from the tenants management company rep was - the fire service said it was OK (along with the missing seals, holes, foamed doors, pointless water extinguishers everywhere, etc)

It's great that there is a process to appeal excessive enforcement requirements, but when you think they have gone the other way there is no recourse and of course they are always right and the risk assessor is always wrong....

Who watches the watchmen?

[Golden]

Often makes me laugh when I hear the phrase "the fire service said it was OK" ... what is the fire service? Do you have an official letter signed by someone with some authority if not then it could be the guys from the local station having a nose around the local building sites - something that some brigades will do due to the issues with timber frame buildings mainly. Even  if you have an official letter it makes no difference - if the building is wrong someone may pick it up in time.

[Dinnertime Dave]

A few things spring to mind here.

A mid 90's conversion that doesn't meet ADB - Who was the BCO? Prior to 2006 the fire service wouldn't have been consulted under Building Regulations. Don't blame us.

The fire service said it's ok. I hear this all the time, everybody says it. We generally ask them to provide the evidence or name the officer. Furthermore, from what you describe under the housing protocols that exist in most areas the housing officer would lead on enforcement.

All you can do is carry out a fire risk assessment, the management company can still ignore it but don't compromise on the correct standards.

[AnthonyB]

It's not the original conversion that I have issues with the fire service with - it's the fact that they advised in writing that the replacement fire alarm system as described was enough for their needs (even though it was less than original).

I'm hear 'the fire officer said it was OK' a lot yet most of the time it's never in writing or it's a local crew - this was unusual in that it was the appropriate department and formal.

I did point out that a letter from 3 years ago doesn't give them permanent immunity!

[Dinnertime Dave]

I'm hear 'the fire officer said it was OK' a lot yet most of the time it's never in writing or it's a local crew - this was unusual in that it was the appropriate department and formal.

I did point out that a letter from 3 years ago doesn't give them permanent immunity!

I don't want to spend my time sticking up for fellow FSOs but none of us are immune from mistakes. Hopefully all mine have been shredded by now and the stuff saved electronically in the past 5 years passes muster.

Ultimately, the RP will always be responsible and whilst a letter written 3 years ago doesn't give them permanent immunity, it probably gives them a credible defence. Good luck with this one.

[Bill.]

Unfortunately this highlights once again the issue that the fire service has of ensuring the acqusition and maintenance of skills for the appropriate fire safety staff.

The worst situation I have come across was that of a service having operational personnel automatically transfered into fire safety as they were on long term non-operational duties and had to be placed somewhere. No additional formal training was given and they were sent out to do audits and give advice.   

I think there is a real risk that such situtions are going to become more prevalent with the ongoing cost saving measures that are being proposed.

 

[kurnal]

Unfortunately this highlights once again the issue that the fire service has of ensuring the acqusition and maintenance of skills for the appropriate fire safety staff.

The worst situation I have come across was that of a service having operational personnel automatically transfered into fire safety as they were on long term non-operational duties and had to be placed somewhere. No additional formal training was given and they were sent out to do audits and give advice.   
I think there is a real risk that such situtions are going to become more prevalent with the ongoing cost saving measures that are being proposed.
 

Whilst I agree with your point Bill they probably would give better advice than some of the so called experts in fire risk assessment  on a certain safety and health register if my experience is anything to go by.

[Dinnertime Dave]

The worst situation I have come across was that of a service having operational personnel automatically transfered into fire safety as they were on long term non-operational duties and had to be placed somewhere. No additional formal training was given and they were sent out to do audits and give advice.   
 

Unfortunately, these same operational personnel leave the service, set up as a fire risk assessor and claim that 30 years in the fire service makes them competent.

[Psuedonym]

"The Fire Service said it was ok" is a load of bollocks. Full stop.

The client your talking to doesn't want to spend any money (lets face it who does?) so they throw this out to try to scare you off or shut you up. I think its a piece of advice given in a SME presentation or a college Management course.
I also ask politely for a letter or report which removes liability for their lack of fire protection onto someone else and now it's not their own and this is where the tiny beads of sweat start to form.
Slowly but gradual and their breathing becomes faster. And so begins the next stage starts: The : "How do I get rid of this Bar Steward" stage.
Then the fun begins.....

[Davo]

Agree K,

One week course and an easy practical gets you a nice shiny bit of paper (frame extra)


davo
(shudders)

[Daffodil]

Just to put a different spin on it, when I go to audit / inspect a premises I often hear that they dont need to do a fire risk assessment or have fire precautions other than extinguishers because they have a retained firefighter working there.