Fire door or not

[lyledunn]

When you go in through the front doors of my golf club there is a large open corridor with doors that lead off it  in to the lounge and function room. The doors to both are fire doors. I see no reason why they should be as I do not think that the corridor needs to be a protected corridor as it is not a dead end. Now the corridor also accommodates stairs down to a snooker room. There is an alternative MOE from the snooker room. Council inspector and a with a FRS officer in attendance have issued instructions to fit cold smoke seals to the fire doors to lounge and function room. A fire risk assessment recently conducted by a respected person had no such concerns. Too many cooks?!

[Dinnertime Dave]

Following a determination on strips/seals on hotel bedrooms that stated that the absence of strips and seals should be from memory "recorded and justified" it seems strenge that an I/O should wish to enforce  installation in your senario.

[Mike Buckley]

What type of instructions have been issued and by whom?

If by the Fire Brigade is it an enforcement notice or a letter of deficiencies?

[Martin]

Why is council trying to enforce RRO? Shouldn't FRS be doing this? Was this a Licensing visit by council?

[lyledunn]

This is NI where slightly different rules apply. Generally the licensing authority (LocalCouncil) invite input from NIFRS but only as a matter of courtesy. It ends up as a frustrating time for the person holding the licence as he has to dole out for the fire risk assessment only to have a Council inspector then a fire officer ride rough shod over it. Makes you wonder why the hell you would bother even attempting a SandS FRA!

[Phoenix]

Hi Lyle,

I will confirm your opinion.  If the doors don't have to be fire doors then they do not need additional seals.

I believe that your legislation is set up to protect life only, as it is elsewhere in the UK.  I also believe that the guidance you use to ensure legislative compliance (i.e. life safety) does not require fire doors on the rooms off a corridor where there are two directions of escape and where no rooms off the corridor are used as sleeping accommodation.  On that basis, I would respectfully ask the person issuing the cold smoke seal requirement for formal confirmation of what guidance they have used to underpin that requirement.

There might be a good reason for their requirement that wasn't obvious or made known to you, for example a sub-dividing door might have been removed or one of the rooms off the corridor might be used as a first aid and recovery room (akin to sleeping accommodation) or maybe more people resort to the premises during functions than the final exits can accommodate so they want to compensate by protecting the corridor (could happen!).  I'm just plucking possible reasons out the air here but the point is that there could be some reason that you are not aware of.  Having said that, the authority having jurisdiction should always make it clear when they issue a requirement what the reason for that requirement is (it's shoddy and unprofessional if they don't). They obviously haven't done this in this case so my next guess would be that they do not know what they are talking about.  What's new?  Appeal.

One final thing to bear in mind is that someone at some time in the past has made a judgement to fit fire doors to these rooms for some reason that they perceived as a benefit.  It might be that they were considering property protection or business continuity.  If so, maybe there is some benefit to be had from fitting the seals to the doors.  I would discuss it with the RP.  If it's quite cheap to fit the seals then maybe the RP will choose to avoid conflict and fit the seals to enhance the property protection and business continuity measures that are installed.

Stu

[lyledunn]

Phoenix,
Too late! I went up for a few holes yesterday in time to see the joiner packing his tools away. The lad did a good neat job but he said no matter what he did with the self-closer, the smoke seal is stopping the doors from mating (they are all double doors). So after agreeing with the club secretary he is coming back Monday to fix shoot bolts on one leaf as it is only when both doors are pushed together do they fail to return to a reasonably closed state. I see no real problem as the exit capacity remains adequate but I wonder if the fire officer will wag his wee tail and be happy that he got his smoke seals but managed to halve exit capacity at the same time!
I completely agree that all recommendations made by inspecting officers should come with full justification. Perhaps that is the case.

[kurnal]

At least in NI the legislation is written that way! There's a lot of agencies try to gold plate and enforce legislation over which they have no jurisdiction. Had a school headteacher on the phone yesterday in distress, ofsted are not happy with the timescales in my fire risk assessment action plan despite her having a letter from the fire service stating it is satisfactory! It seems ofsted want every outstanding action dealt with immediately without regard to risk.

[Daffodil]

Just out of interest, the way that I read this was that the doors lead down to a snooker room, are the FR doors required for a basement scenario?

[nearlythere]

Just out of interest, the way that I read this was that the doors lead down to a snooker room, are the FR doors required for a basement scenario?

It maywell be something to do with the recommendation, requirement to most,  that the means of escape from areas of entertainment should be via protected routes, dead end or not.
Was pleased to hear that hmo enforcement authorities in NI have been on a fire risk assesent course and now audit that way. Hurray for progress.
Now we need council officials to go on the same course with perhaps some frs enforcement type on tow.

[Phoenix]

It may well be something to do with the recommendation, requirement to most, that the means of escape from areas of entertainment should be via protected routes, dead end or not.

Where does it say this?

[nearlythere]

It may well be something to do with the recommendation, requirement to most, that the means of escape from areas of entertainment should be via protected routes, dead end or not.

Where does it say this?

NI Phoenix.

[col10]

Not directly relevant to NI, but ADB says that the ground floor over the basement should be a compartment floor, stairway in a protected shaft and the doors to the shaft should be fire doors, with smoke seals.

[Phoenix]

Noted.