44 or 38?

[wee brian]

My understanding of the original post is that we were talking about "guessing" whether a door is or isn't a fire door.

We'd all like the paperwork to be in order but thats not going to be the case very often.

You wont be popular if you tell a client to replace all his doors because he doesn't have any paperwork (he wont have any for the walls either)

so what are the things you would look for. - we can all come up with a list, lets not do that now.

but is one of the things on that list the thickness of the door?

I'd say yes. If a door is less than 44mm thick I'd be supicious that the door wasn't up to scratch.

Then you get into all the "well does it matter" stuff.

[Dinnertime Dave]

We'd all like the paperwork to be in order but thats not going to be the case very often.

You wont be popular if you tell a client to replace all his doors because he doesn't have any paperwork (he wont have any for the walls either)

Exactly WB, perhaps you could work for my local hospital who have changed the cross corridor doors on the hospital street because they have no paperwork.

[Fishy]

I was with you on the first paragraph, I could see your logic.
I would disagree with stronger doors bowing more from my experience. But would appreciate to see some data on this if you have it?

Second paragraph "fire door inspection scheme membership", that might sum up why we disagree.

It's always been a source of wonder for me why people are quite happy to get trained up before they offer opinions about the performance of fire detection & fire alarm systems, or fire suppression & extinguishing systems, but apparently dismiss the possibility of doing the same in order to offer opinions about passive fire protection systems.

On the 'FDIS' - the simple fact is that clients are starting to ask for it.  How do I know?  Because I know people losing work because they don't have anyone on the scheme!

Like it or not, the marketplace is changing & inspection & verification of passive fire protection is becoming a discipline in itself.  The days of rapping a door with your knuckles & pronouncing it "OK" depending upon how it sounds & how heavy it feels are (in my opinion) numbered.  Just a statement based upon recent experience - it's not something I currently do or would wish to do (though I could), so I'm just an observer.

[wee brian]

Theres going to be a market for things like FDIS and thats no bad thing. Doors move and get kicked and bashed about so they need a bit of TLC.

But anybody offering risk assessment services needs to offer proportionate advice to their clients.

And no amount of training will help you know, for sure, about a door unless you have all the paperwork. and were there when it was made!

[kurnal]

The best people to become trained in this regard are fire risk assessors. Only by taking a holistic approach can a full review of the door and its setting be made. Unfortunately many of us rely on past knowledge, training and above all misperceptions and mis information gathered over the years. I do not exclude myself from this.

The other approach, even worse in my opinion, is for joiners to become fire door jobsworths, and this applies across all disciplines so we end up with L1/P1fire alarms , illuminated exit signs, fire extinguishers and signage everywhere, jobsworths all but nobody has consdered the means of escape.

[Fishy]

The other approach, even worse in my opinion, is for joiners to become fire door jobsworths, and this applies across all disciplines so we end up with L1/P1fire alarms , illuminated exit signs, fire extinguishers and signage everywhere, jobsworths all but nobody has consdered the means of escape.

Absolutely 100% agree...

[JT]

The other approach, even worse in my opinion, is for joiners to become fire door jobsworths, and this applies across all disciplines so we end up with L1/P1fire alarms , illuminated exit signs, fire extinguishers and signage everywhere, jobsworths all but nobody has consdered the means of escape.

Absolutely 100% agree...

This did make me chuckle as I met one recently! Now a project manager expert in all cost items. He tried to tell me all kitchens must have an ansul system as the thermostat breaks every 6 months. Dangerous as people believe them - and there was a fire exit locked, but the kitchen was safe.

[JT]

It's always been a source of wonder for me why people are quite happy to get trained up before they offer opinions about the performance of fire detection & fire alarm systems, or fire suppression & extinguishing systems, but apparently dismiss the possibility of doing the same in order to offer opinions about passive fire protection systems.

On the 'FDIS' - the simple fact is that clients are starting to ask for it.  How do I know?  Because I know people losing work because they don't have anyone on the scheme!

Like it or not, the marketplace is changing & inspection & verification of passive fire protection is becoming a discipline in itself.  The days of rapping a door with your knuckles & pronouncing it "OK" depending upon how it sounds & how heavy it feels are (in my opinion) numbered.  Just a statement based upon recent experience - it's not something I currently do or would wish to do (though I could), so I'm just an observer.
[/quote]

Not sure how you check doors but I don't "wrap my knuckles". Years of experience and a bit of engineering judgement. Completely agree about additional training on passive fire provisions, and I personally try to get along to any relevant training or with the manufacturers. I don't like the idea of FDIS as this should be picked up as part of the FRA, not a separate inspection.

[Auntie LIn]

Late, I know, but can I put a plug in for ASDMA's most recent (free download) publication 'Risk Assessment Considerations for Timber Fire Doors ASDMA Guidance for Responsible Persons'?   It might not answer this query in its entirety, but it should help you chaps out.

[kurnal]

Cardiff I have rapped on many a fire door fully marked up with S1, with seals and self closer and the hollow ring and bounce of the door skin have clearly showed the door to be  of hollow construction. The rap of the knuckles can only show a door is NOT a fire door. It can never show that it is. Keep on rappin!

[idlefire]

And no amount of training will help you know, for sure, about a door unless you have all the paperwork. and were there when it was made!

Conversely, no amount of paperwork will guarantee that a specific door will actually provide 30/60/90/120 minutes of fire resistance in the event of a fire; all it will do is confirm that a similar door, when tested, once complied to the said standard that was current on the day it was tested. 

The "knock" is often sufficient for a competent risk assessor to be able to make a professional judgement, were such paperwork is not available, as to whether a door will likely provide an adequate level of fire resistance in order for all relevant persons to make good their escape in the event of a fire.

[Fishy]

Cardiff I have rapped on many a fire door fully marked up with S1, with seals and self closer and the hollow ring and bounce of the door skin have clearly showed the door to be  of hollow construction. The rap of the knuckles can only show a door is NOT a fire door. It can never show that it is. Keep on rappin!

There are actually a number of perfectly OK 30 and 60 min fire resisting door leaves that will sound hollow when you knock on them.  An example would be a moulded MDF skin over a framed F/R board core.  The skins don't contact the core, so it'll sound hollow.  e.g. http://www.jeld-wen.co.uk/media/1431159/jeld-wen-uk-%E2%80%93-internal-fd60-54mm-moulded-panel-fire-door.pdf

It's not difficult to get very lightweight timber fire doors through the test - but I did hear that they've sometimes proved difficult to market 'cos the chippies won't believe a lightweight door can be a fire door, so they're happier struggling to fit doors that are twice as heavy as they need to be!

[Tom Sutton]

The fire doors you speak of appear to be modern fire doors which should have certification, I would think if a door does not appear to be a fire door you reject it until the RP produces a certificate/documentation, you check it and then, if genuine, accept it.

[wee brian]

which is where this thread started.