Use of fire extinguishers

[lyledunn]

One of our private members clubs has been served with an enforcement notice via the entertainment licence section of the local council. One of the issues on the action plan is that staff should be trained in the use of fire extinguishers. There is one part-time member of staff who has been in this wee club from the year dot. She is certainly capable of swinging in to action despite being over 70 but I think this is a step too far. The fire safety strategy for most of our clubs concentrates on evacuation procedures rather than fire fighting. (We represent private members clubs and have no profit motive). Many of our smaller Clubs do not have members of staff and are run on a voluntary basis.
Some time ago we arranged formal training in the use of portable extinguishers for selected employees of certain larger clubs. It turned out to be close to a farce. Many of these individuals who are employed in the club sector, I mean no disrespect, are simply not capable of technical learning and retention, nor indeed do they have the slightest interest.
I intend to challenge the notice in this regard but I would be grateful for your opinions on the general issue.

[wee brian]

First aid firefighting is an important part of fire safety. Putting out small fires before they become an issue is a no brainer.

I expect a real world situation would probably involve one of the club members grabing an extinguisher.

Maybe adopt a proportionate training regime - eg non live fire, a short talk or even a web based package might be better.

[Mike Buckley]

I would agree with Brian about the need for first aid firefighting and a certain amount of training is always going to be needed. However I disagree about the type of training he is suggesting. Given the type of person lyle is describing I would suggest practical training rather than theoretical. I find when I do training although people do find the technical input useful, the highspot is going outside and letting off a fire extinguisher and actually putting a fire out (even just a simulated one).

It much better to fit the training to the trainee rather than fitting the trainee to the training!

[wee brian]

And this is all free is it?

[kurnal]

The fire safety strategy for most of our clubs concentrates on evacuation procedures rather than fire fighting. .............Some time ago we arranged formal training in the use of portable extinguishers for selected employees of certain larger clubs. It turned out to be close to a farce. Many of these individuals who are employed in the club sector, I mean no disrespect, are simply not capable of technical learning and retention, nor indeed do they have the slightest interest.

Hi Lyle - do you have confidence in these individuals in implementing and supervising the evacuation procedures?   As far as firefighting equipment training is concerned the employer should take a look at the possible fires that might occur in your clubs that could affect life safety and scenarios in which the limited number of staff would be better to implement first aid firefighting rather than immediately initiating the evacuation rocedures. This would include very small fires such as a smoking bin (jug of water) till or computer smoking (unplug it and use a blanket or CO2) and provide a basic level of training to meet these scenarios. Not interested is not an excuse. Not capable leads to more serious concerns over the staff's rolee.

[Jim Scott]

Assuming this is in England, why are the LA poking their nose in?

Many licensing authorities appear to conveniently forget that Art 43 suspends any term that can be imposed by the LA, where it is covered by the order.

In a nutshell, it is likely that the matter is unenforceable by the LA.

Trouble is, it doesn't help when their own guidance, which is produced by the Home Office, states that they can!

[kurnal]

Hi Jim I think most of Lyles premises are in Northern Ireland.

[Jim Scott]

Fair enough, that explains that one. 

[lyledunn]

Kurnal, I honestly do not think that the enforcing authorities have any idea about the capability of some of the people that are staffing these clubs. I would have absolutely no doubt that your jug of water would be innocently poured over a smoking till even after intensive training. Why are these people employed, we'll try ?6.50 per hour and see what calibre of person you can attract! Expecting them to fight fires, even small ones is simply beyond the pale.
What I am asking you guys is this; if the simple  purpose is life-safety then in these relatively small premises with the type of of staff I have described, is it not reasonable to get out and get the fire brigade out. Leave the fire fighting to the guys who know what they are doing.
Part of my role is to ensure that general health and safety risks in these clubs are properly assessed. Trying to achieve a tolerable level of risk when considering a staff member using an extinguisher in a fire situation is close to impossible!

[kurnal]

Lyle I note what you say but in 2008, the Fire Industry Association carried out a survey into the usage of portable fire extinguishers, this showed that where the fires were fought using portable fire extinguishers 80% were successfully extinguished, and that in 75% of cases there was no need to call the Fire and Rescue services.
Based on these findings there is no doubt that portable fire extinguishers play a very important role in the preservation of life and property. The use of portable fire extinguishers can reduce the risk of a very small fire developing into a large one.

[JT]

Lyle I think you may be being a little unfair to these people. It's not complicated, although dragged out to a 6 hour course usually.
We use elearning which is basically a box ticker to satisfy the enforcing authority. You can't beat a live fire course which is ideal for the head chef and manager at least. But not many want to pay for this.
I always tend to spend time with the kitchen staff during an FRA and teach them how to use the wet chemical extinguisher.

[Fishy]

Slight aside from the Extinguisher issue (in which I'm in full agreement with Kurnal et al...)

if you're providing a service that requires people competent and capable to do certain things in the event of a fire then you have to make sure they are present at all relevant times and have that competence and capability.  My understanding is that lack of affordability is absolutely no excuse in Court. 

The Law assumes that if you decide to provide a service you've established that you can afford to do it safely - if you can't then you must choose not to offer the service.

[lyledunn]

Yes Fishy but many of my clubs are small, open perhaps only once or twice a week and often staffed by volunteers or people on a very low wage. Staff turnover is often extremely high. Take one football club. Open on Wednesday and Saturday only. One part-time member of staff. If he can't turn up then the secretary has to phone around to get a replacement, someone's son or daughter who is looking for a few extra quid. Maybe 40 or 50 patrons. I imagine that if an incipient fire was discovered, someone, drunk or sober, might attempt to tackle it. Whether they tackle it or not, fire risk assessment is about saving lives. I see no point in forcing these small clubs in to providing fire extinguisher training to staff who may be there for such short periods. Framing a strategy around a simple instruction of immediate alert and evacuate is to me reasonable.
We have not had a single fatality or serious injury as a result of an accidental fire in a private members club as far as any of us can ascertain in over twenty years.
Yes to fire extinguisher training, of course I see the merits, but horses for courses!

[AnthonyB]

Training doesn't have to mean a week at the Ansul Fire School using portables and wheeled units on big scale live hydrocarbon fires.

It could just be a 10 minute toolbox talk or an e-learning programme. It's all dependant on the risk.

Some risks warrant full on practical, some don't and whilst the traditional days fire warden course with an afternoon of live Class A & B fire fighting with all types of extinguisher and a fire blanket would be good for everyone it's reality that it's unachievable.

I did my dissertation for my honours degree around the benefits of fire extinguisher training (practical and theory) and the statistical & case research, along with the local survey and questionnaire and the practical experiments strongly support some form of training in all cases and ideally hands on practical. There are business continuity & loss prevention advantages as well as life safety (hence why extinguishers once attracted insurance discounts)

Simplification of cover would help - less different types, less chance of error, there is often no need to have 6 different types in a premises - it's a shame cost & industry protectionism has stifled the adoption of water mist for example.

Some untrained users are featured on this old training video from my Youtube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6zltc0_njw

[Messy]

Training doesn't have to mean a week at the Ansul Fire School using portables and wheeled units on big scale live hydrocarbon fires.

It could just be a 10 minute toolbox talk or an e-learning programme. It's all dependant on the risk.

I couldn't agree more. For low risk premises, extinguisher training should be very simple. I really don't know why so many people (& enforcers) get their knickers in a twist about it!

Practically operating/using an extinguisher is not rocket science - after all, everyone has used an aerosol before now - and that is effectively what they are!!

Training should aim at providing knowledge about knowing when not to use one and if a decision is made to have a go, using them safely (risk assessing/keeping escape route clear etc). Thats perhaps the area most people are not so clear on and where the risk is. So e-learning or a 'show and tell' session - perhaps with no practical discharge - can be suitable in lower risk environments. It really doesn't have to be gas training rigs and those TV set ups which are like clever electronic 'games'